May 10, 2024

S2 - EP2 - Special Educational Needs: Understanding the System with Juliana Nichol

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S2 - EP2 - Special Educational Needs: Understanding the System with Juliana Nichol
S2 - EP2 - Special Educational Needs: Understanding the System with Juliana Nichol
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Season 1

In this episode of Chatty-AF, Rosie Gill-Moss speaks with Juliana Nichol, a special educational needs (SEN) expert with over 30 years of experience. Together, they discuss the complexities of the education system, particularly for children with neurodiversity and additional needs. Juliana shares her insights on how schools handle special educational needs, the challenges of diagnosis, and the importance of tailored support.

Key Highlights:

  • Navigating special educational needs in schools
  • The challenges of getting an Educational Health Care Plan (EHCP)
  • How children with autism and ADHD are often misunderstood in the current system
  • The impact of undiagnosed or unsupported neurodiversity on children’s mental health

Why You Should Listen: If you're a parent, educator, or simply interested in understanding how the education system supports children with additional needs, this episode provides valuable perspectives. Juliana offers practical advice on advocating for children within the system, while Rosie shares her personal experiences as a mother of neurodivergent children.


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Web : https://www.chatty-af.com/
Instagram : @chatty_af_podcast and @rosie_gill_moss

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Disclaimers: The content of this podcast is for informational purposes only. The experiences and opinions expressed by the guest are personal and should not be taken as general advice. Listeners are encouraged to seek professional support for similar issues. The producers and host are not responsible for any actions taken based on the information provided in this episode.

Chapters

00:00 - Introduction and Rosie's personal experience with neurodivergence and special needs education

00:06 - The importance of holding children accountable for actions and the stress of exams

01:17 - Discussion on the male-oriented diagnosis of autism and the rise in ADHD diagnosis

02:38 - Introduction to guest Julianna Nichol, a special needs education expert

05:16 - Julianna Nichol's background in special needs education and the diverse presentation of autism

10:22 - The negative impacts of overlooking quiet, underachieving children

14:26 - Understanding the journey of parents with neurodivergent children and navigating the system

20:06 - Celebrating the growth and changes in a neurodivergent child

28:14 - The need to change adult interpretations of neurodivergent children's needs and the importance of fiddle toys

32:35 - The challenges of transitioning to secondary school for neurodivergent children

41:04 - The role of funding in supporting neurodivergent children in schools and the need for tailored teaching strategie

01:07:15 - The consequences of misconduct and the struggle of managing a diverse classroom

01:14:21 - Practical training for staff to understand children's feelings and the importance of empathy in teaching

01:25:17 - Dealing with a child's meltdown in a school setting

01:39:26 - Personal experience with public humiliation and being trapped, and neurodiversity and societal perceptions

01:50:15 - Increase in diagnosis - more awareness or more cases?

01:57:37 - The role of parents in the education system and the importance of consistent strategies at home and school

02:04:52 - The significance of observations during non-structured times and sensory issues in school environments

02:07:10 - Wrapping up and contact information

Transcript
WEBVTT

00:00:02.786 --> 00:00:07.546
Hello and welcome My name is Rosie, obviously, and I am your host.

00:00:08.336 --> 00:00:23.346
I have conducted a few interviews recently with a variety of different people across different genres and different subject matters, and one subject I'm particularly interested in is that of special needs education.

00:00:24.525 --> 00:00:25.896
I myself am neurodivergent.

00:00:26.135 --> 00:00:37.151
I was diagnosed late in life And I'm very aware of the, of the dangers and the risks that come with lack of diagnosis, misdiagnosis, and with not feeling like you really belong in the world.

00:00:37.951 --> 00:00:44.591
So, when my son was diagnosed with autism when he was five, um, it was a bit of a shock if I'm honest.

00:00:44.860 --> 00:00:45.981
I wasn't expecting it.

00:00:46.691 --> 00:00:55.110
Because he didn't He didn't do the things that we associate with, or I associated with, um, autistic children in that, you know, he didn't line his cars up.

00:00:55.180 --> 00:01:03.651
And I felt that he made eye contact, but during the assessment, um, the psychologist said to me, yes, but does he make eye contact with other people?

00:01:03.651 --> 00:01:06.661
And of course you then start to notice a lot of these traits.

00:01:07.760 --> 00:01:22.055
Now, one thing that has come out in more recent times, Is this concept that autism in particular is, is still being, um, diagnosed in a very, uh, male orientated way?

00:01:22.126 --> 00:01:25.615
So, a lot of women and girls are still going undiagnosed.

00:01:25.676 --> 00:01:30.605
In fact, ADHD wasn't actually a recognized condition until, I think, 1998?

00:01:32.915 --> 00:01:42.480
So There's been an enormous rise in diagnosis, which of course has led to some questioning of its validity and its, um, authenticity.

00:01:43.251 --> 00:01:53.251
Now, I can tell you that as an autistic adult with ADHD, it is not a fad, it's not a craze, it's not, um, we're not doing it for attention.

00:01:54.150 --> 00:02:11.070
What it is, is it's a condition that if you understand it, and if you are supported with it, it can actually You will live a perfectly normal life, um, but so much of the damage comes from misunderstanding, misinformation and of thinking that you are not good enough.

00:02:12.080 --> 00:02:18.561
So for me and my son, um, I, I really try and celebrate our, our, our diversity.

00:02:18.631 --> 00:02:22.661
And, um, and like we, it's a very neurodivergent household.

00:02:22.661 --> 00:02:25.531
You know, we have lots of lists and timers and that sort of thing around the house.

00:02:26.411 --> 00:02:29.830
But I know that the education system is failing these children.

00:02:29.860 --> 00:02:36.131
It's not the teachers that want to fail them, it's that whole square peg round hole situation.

00:02:36.420 --> 00:02:45.760
And I, when I got the opportunity to speak to Juliana, who's worked in special needs, , teaching for over 30 years across all areas.

00:02:45.770 --> 00:02:49.730
So she's a fascinating and very, very well informed woman.

00:02:50.700 --> 00:02:59.371
It was, I was able to ask her a lot of questions that you perhaps can't ask of a school, or you can't ask of teachers who are working because they're not really able to talk about it.

00:02:59.450 --> 00:03:06.371
So, it's quite frank, it's quite open, um, and I personally think it's really interesting.

00:03:06.741 --> 00:03:15.781
So if you yourself are parenting a neurodivergent child, or a child with any form of additional needs, I think you'll probably get something quite important from this.

00:03:16.061 --> 00:03:20.645
And If you don't and you work in the profession, perhaps it'll help there too.

00:03:21.506 --> 00:03:33.686
But it certainly opened my eyes to some of the ways that you can support children and your, and adults, of course, as well, but also to how much kind of misinformation there is out there.

00:03:34.156 --> 00:03:36.635
So have a listen, um, let me know what you think.

00:03:36.725 --> 00:03:40.455
And the next voices you're going to hear will be me and Juliana Nicol.

00:03:41.094 --> 00:03:47.564
hello, and a very warm welcome You are here with me, Rosie, and joining me today, I've got Juliana Nicol.

00:03:47.574 --> 00:03:48.645
Hello, Juliana.

00:03:48.939 --> 00:03:49.599
Hi, Rosie.

00:03:49.599 --> 00:03:50.310
How are you doing?

00:03:50.585 --> 00:03:51.405
I'm very well.

00:03:51.414 --> 00:03:53.275
Thank you so much for coming on today.

00:03:53.645 --> 00:04:04.444
We are going to be talking about special educational needs and the kind of situation, I want to say the state of the education system, but I don't want to sound like I'm on the attack already.

00:04:04.824 --> 00:04:18.064
Um, But we are aware and many, many of my listeners will be aware that the education system that we have in place, particularly when it comes to children with neurodivergence or additional needs is just not working.

00:04:18.074 --> 00:04:35.379
We are trying to put square pegs into round holes and unless you are either able to pay for an alternative placement or In my case, fight like buggery for two years to get your child into a specialist placement, which comes with a great cost to the council.

00:04:36.189 --> 00:04:38.649
You kind of have to sink or swim.

00:04:38.680 --> 00:04:41.069
And I just, I personally don't think this is good enough.

00:04:41.360 --> 00:04:49.399
I don't, I think that so many children who have got such capabilities and such potential are being lost.

00:04:49.430 --> 00:05:01.000
Um, and also that will be having an impact on the neurotypical children within the classes because there's only so many teachers for the amount of children in the class, and as the need increases, there isn't an increase in funding or teaching.

00:05:01.480 --> 00:05:04.360
I'm basically saying things that you're probably gonna say in a minute.

00:05:04.360 --> 00:05:12.100
So I'm gonna shut up actually and let you just introduce yourself and, and tell the listeners, you know, how you come to be an expert in this field.

00:05:13.790 --> 00:05:15.269
uh, my name is Juliana Nichol.

00:05:15.290 --> 00:05:23.404
I've been working With children with SEN as well as, uh, neurotypical children for I think over 30 years.

00:05:23.884 --> 00:05:31.415
Um, I started off with, back then they cla they classed the children as mentally handicapped children and young adults.

00:05:31.415 --> 00:05:34.954
But obviously our language has progressed somewhat.

00:05:34.985 --> 00:05:35.824
Thank goodness.

00:05:36.329 --> 00:05:54.439
But I have done numerous jobs from one to one to, um, SENCO, SENCO Assistant, um, Specialist, SEN and Nurture Coordinator, right across the board from primary, nursery, all the way up to secondary.

00:05:54.680 --> 00:06:00.860
And I did do a stint as an Emotional Healthcare Practitioner, but left that and now I'm on.

00:06:01.410 --> 00:06:03.790
Um, just consulting.

00:06:04.160 --> 00:06:11.189
I went back in my 40s to go back and do a university course on autism.

00:06:11.629 --> 00:06:15.449
Because at that time it was kind of not really understood.

00:06:16.040 --> 00:06:19.410
And the spectrum's so wide and I think we still don't understand it.

00:06:19.754 --> 00:06:28.095
We still don't get it, we're still fighting the ever uphill fighting, pushing that ball up the hill, never quite reaching the top.

00:06:28.774 --> 00:06:28.875
So,

00:06:29.394 --> 00:06:33.595
it feels like the education system is still quite out of touch.

00:06:33.595 --> 00:06:39.274
So I have a, um, I have a son who has got a diagnosis of autism and ADHD and he's in a specialist provision.

00:06:39.634 --> 00:06:41.875
He is very academically capable.

00:06:41.875 --> 00:06:44.345
He's a lovely, engaging, sociable child.

00:06:45.084 --> 00:06:56.964
But the kind of micro traumas that come from being undiagnosed or being this square peg in a round hole were beginning to really take their toll on his mental health, which in turn was impacting on his academic performance.

00:06:57.814 --> 00:07:10.995
So he's actually in a school that provides for social emotional mental health needs as well due to the loss of his dad when he was five but my daughter, my youngest child is she's six, and she presents exactly like I do.

00:07:11.504 --> 00:07:12.725
And she is.

00:07:13.264 --> 00:07:35.925
in my non expert, but very experienced opinion has ADHD and is autistic, but because of the way she presents as in sociable, academic, uh, all the kind of, you know, the things that you don't associate with autism, even in, you know, this kind of fairly enlightened time we're in, I'm still having to give her teacher printouts about masking and high masking girls.

00:07:35.975 --> 00:07:38.675
And one day I said, Oh, can I give her a fidget toy?

00:07:38.704 --> 00:07:42.625
Cause she's, you know, she's struggling with concentration and it was just a flat no.

00:07:43.920 --> 00:07:45.899
I thought this is, this is archaic.

00:07:45.930 --> 00:08:12.300
So I've now got to either wait, you know, five to seven years for a formal diagnosis or I pay privately, which is about 3000 pounds, or my child is just expected to meet neurotypical targets and behaviors because I don't have that certification that proves it, which, Feels wrong to me, but I'm also aware of the, um, level of need that they are looking at in that class and in other classes.

00:08:12.310 --> 00:08:18.660
So a child that performs well and is sociable and is not, you know, suffering from severe mental health issues.

00:08:18.970 --> 00:08:23.009
I think the word, the term you described when we met previously was wallpaper children.

00:08:23.324 --> 00:08:23.944
wallpaper.

00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:25.029
Yeah.

00:08:25.069 --> 00:08:29.279
And tell me a little bit about that and your experience of seeing those children and the impact it's having on them.

00:08:30.095 --> 00:08:34.764
For one, girls present in a completely different manner.

00:08:34.774 --> 00:08:43.860
If you were to take the, um, I'm not going to say symptoms, I'm not going to say traits, Because I hate the word traits because each child is different.

00:08:43.879 --> 00:08:56.259
But if you took the autistic package and said, right, that child should, doesn't have any social skills, doesn't communicate, has, has frustrations, has outbursts, they don't all present like that.

00:08:56.259 --> 00:08:58.139
And girls definitely don't present like that.

00:08:58.139 --> 00:09:00.289
In fact, they're over sociable.

00:09:00.549 --> 00:09:02.820
They are inappropriately sociable.

00:09:02.830 --> 00:09:05.559
They, they are what I call a collector of friends.

00:09:06.049 --> 00:09:06.289
They don't

00:09:06.309 --> 00:09:08.850
my god, you're, I feel very seen.

00:09:09.409 --> 00:09:10.070
friends.

00:09:10.629 --> 00:09:17.399
You know, they go around the playground and they collect their friends, but they can't play with multiple children.

00:09:17.480 --> 00:09:20.919
They can play with one or none, but they need to have them all around them.

00:09:21.440 --> 00:09:24.549
When I say wallpaper children, they're the children that sit in the corner.

00:09:25.764 --> 00:09:30.085
looking like they're, they're doing what they're meant to be doing, but they're really not.

00:09:30.304 --> 00:09:43.634
But they're not the child that's calling out, they're not the child that keeps getting up, um, you know, walking out to the front of the classroom, sharpening the pencil, um, you know, never finding their place if they've got a laptop, not been able to find it.

00:09:43.985 --> 00:09:55.320
They're the child that sits quietly, never quite achieves a lot, but they don't get noticed, and they're in the corner, in the back, or in the front even sometimes, but they just don't get noticed.

00:09:55.820 --> 00:10:00.990
aren't presenting in this way, which, which has a detrimental effect to the classroom.

00:10:01.190 --> 00:10:11.519
And that's not the teacher's fault, because I think that their lack of education on our side Because we're so used to going, okay, we can pigeonhole.

00:10:11.529 --> 00:10:16.179
It is that square, you know, that round peg in a square hole, whatever, whichever way you want to put it.

00:10:16.220 --> 00:10:19.730
But it's about, we take it at face value.

00:10:19.850 --> 00:10:25.250
If they're not meeting this level of anxiety, we don't, it's fine.

00:10:25.299 --> 00:10:26.559
Just park them over there.

00:10:27.080 --> 00:10:28.399
We'll look at their progress.

00:10:28.399 --> 00:10:30.340
And then we start saying, well, they're not progressing.

00:10:30.340 --> 00:10:31.090
They're not doing this.

00:10:31.090 --> 00:10:35.600
They're not doing that, but they're quiet and they're not disrupting.

00:10:36.840 --> 00:10:37.159
And they're

00:10:37.480 --> 00:10:39.340
And if they're still meeting the targets.

00:10:39.500 --> 00:10:39.809
Yeah.

00:10:40.820 --> 00:11:03.730
So I think, you know, we all see the children who are the loud, the ones who can't cope, the ones who end up, um, you know, scraping the desk off, clearing everything off, throwing the chairs when they are, have reached that top layer of frustration and anxiety with not looking at the little ones at the bottom.

00:11:04.730 --> 00:11:22.169
And of course, all these years of not being noticed and perhaps, um, and I'm going to use a term that was actually used, um, for me regularly as a child was you're scatty, um, could try harder, needs to apply herself very capable, easily distracted, talks too much, of course, right?

00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:28.039
And as you described there, the, um, the collection of friends, I was talking to somebody only yesterday.

00:11:28.039 --> 00:11:28.414
so much for having me.

00:11:28.565 --> 00:11:35.774
And saying at Christmas, I would send out, you know, I was, I don't know how many kids are in my year at school, but I would send out Christmas cards to probably half of them.

00:11:36.434 --> 00:11:39.595
Um, and I would love receiving them back in exchange.

00:11:39.634 --> 00:11:51.335
And, but when it came to that real closeness of friendship and the trust and that real bond where you know that somebody is, is in your corner, which you can get even as a child, I didn't really experience that.

00:11:51.365 --> 00:12:08.085
I would be, um, you know, My friends would, and I use that term loosely, I would be sort of scapegoated a little bit, you know, if there was trouble I would get the blame and And I sort of lent, I went from being a very capable, very academic, and I'm gonna say they said I was one of the brightest kids they'd ever seen at primary school.

00:12:08.595 --> 00:12:11.485
I've kept, I've, I've held on to that from when I was 11 years old.

00:12:11.485 --> 00:12:23.715
But I then went to secondary school and in that time I had not only developed an eating disorder, um, so I went to secondary school thin, which in turn meant that I was then noticed by boys and by the popular girls.

00:12:24.284 --> 00:12:31.164
And I kind of created this, this alternate persona, which I carried around with me really for about 30 years.

00:12:31.924 --> 00:12:35.784
And I can see in my daughter, I can see the masking.

00:12:35.784 --> 00:12:40.480
I can see that, um, Almost trying on personality sort of thing.

00:12:40.879 --> 00:12:45.149
And if there's more than one friend round, she'll often just go and sit quietly somewhere.

00:12:45.549 --> 00:12:46.330
But of course you're right.

00:12:46.330 --> 00:12:49.639
These are not things that cause disturbance or distraction in class.

00:12:49.700 --> 00:13:04.419
And looking back at Hector, I mean, he was diagnosed just after his dad died because his, um, I knew there was something, but I had no experience, uh, despite, and also if you're a neurodivergent yourself, you perhaps don't notice it because you think it's normal.

00:13:04.990 --> 00:13:08.894
Um, and when they said to me, Oh, you're looking at autism.

00:13:08.894 --> 00:13:10.184
And I was like, what?

00:13:10.884 --> 00:13:29.105
But he makes eye contact and he doesn't line his cars up, which is only five years ago, and I think how much progress has been in, um, the information that's out there, and I have to say things like TikTok have been really helpful, but also it's there if you go looking for it, but until it lands on your doorstep, I mean, right?

00:13:30.014 --> 00:13:31.774
But he was throwing chairs and things.

00:13:31.835 --> 00:13:34.044
He was throwing chairs and he was biting.

00:13:34.095 --> 00:13:39.134
And so, school kind of had a vested interest to help me get support in.

00:13:39.605 --> 00:13:43.509
But Yeah, it, it is, I can see it all the time.

00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:49.919
These, the, I mean, I'm like, it's like gaydar, but for neurodiverse, and I'm like, yep, you, and yes, you, and yes, you.

00:13:50.309 --> 00:13:54.480
But, and I do think a lot of the support can come from being at home.

00:13:54.730 --> 00:14:03.259
Um, but then you're relying on the parents having the time or the inclination to do the research and change their parenting style, which not everybody can do.

00:14:03.740 --> 00:14:03.830
So.

00:14:03.830 --> 00:14:05.779
Oh

00:14:05.809 --> 00:14:07.490
I think you've said a couple of things there.

00:14:07.769 --> 00:14:16.139
My biggest thing when I was doing, um, SEDCO, my biggest thing was about the journey.

00:14:16.149 --> 00:14:16.909
And it is a journey.

00:14:16.940 --> 00:14:18.629
It's not just a journey for your child.

00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:21.049
It's a journey for your, for the parents.

00:14:21.529 --> 00:14:22.559
And let's face it.

00:14:23.460 --> 00:14:27.090
We know none of us want to think about our child struggling.

00:14:27.320 --> 00:14:33.230
We all want them to go on to be, um, fantastic human beings that we know that they can be.

00:14:33.710 --> 00:14:43.509
But we know what lies ahead and I, and there's one child I'm thinking about in particular, his mum, bless her, she and dad kept saying to me, It's fine, it's fine.

00:14:44.070 --> 00:14:45.389
Grandparents say he's fine.

00:14:45.980 --> 00:14:47.289
And then we got into it.

00:14:47.289 --> 00:15:04.514
But it's, but it's the journey that takes you from A to B and inside that, There isn't the scope for some parents to be able to, to do the research, to look at it because you're still struggling with the fact that someone's telling me my child isn't as every other child in the classroom.

00:15:04.985 --> 00:15:07.965
They're either withdrawn or they happen to be aggressive.

00:15:08.154 --> 00:15:20.914
You know, there's complaints from other parents, which is, I get because you've got 30 children in a class and if you have one child who is hurting others, all those other parents have equal rights to be able to say, I don't want this to happen.

00:15:21.524 --> 00:15:21.845
Thoughts?

00:15:22.565 --> 00:15:24.615
And this is where I get frustrated.

00:15:25.174 --> 00:15:33.225
The but comes because it's, well, I only tell the parents when it's at this level, we need to be at this level.

00:15:33.595 --> 00:15:38.345
You know, there's certain things that we could put in place for children going into school.

00:15:38.835 --> 00:15:44.725
That can, can overcome these small anxieties that don't create a bigger anxiety.

00:15:45.544 --> 00:15:51.195
But those who, those, those who don't get over it, we need to look at it differently.

00:15:51.595 --> 00:15:58.605
And the problem is, is, I hear teachers all the time and I have, I've had the privilege of working with some amazing teachers.

00:15:59.014 --> 00:15:59.894
But I hear them.

00:16:00.774 --> 00:16:08.654
Either it doesn't work within the first week, so I'm not doing it anymore, or it's working brilliantly, but I'm still not going to do it because it doesn't need it now.

00:16:08.654 --> 00:16:10.264
And you're thinking, hang on,

00:16:10.769 --> 00:16:11.129
Yeah.

00:16:11.264 --> 00:16:12.705
it takes time.

00:16:12.934 --> 00:16:14.835
You know, what is, what is our end goal?

00:16:14.835 --> 00:16:27.205
Our end goal is to get our children to be able to make, The connection and the strategies for themselves, because when they get to teenagers and they have the outside influences, we want them to already have those strategies.

00:16:28.125 --> 00:16:31.235
But they don't, it's like anything, learning to drive, it's like anything.

00:16:31.445 --> 00:16:32.625
You don't do it in a week.

00:16:32.625 --> 00:16:34.975
You don't, you can't learn in a week.

00:16:35.134 --> 00:16:36.654
You have to persevere.

00:16:36.715 --> 00:16:47.975
And I hear all the time, it either hasn't worked because it's a week and the behavior hasn't stopped, or yes, it's stopped, but we're not going to do that anymore because it takes up too much time.

00:16:49.370 --> 00:16:50.710
Yeah, yeah.

00:16:50.759 --> 00:17:00.070
And this is the thing with things like EHTPs, you know, they're putting down the improvements, but you also don't want to put too much improvement because they might take your support away.

00:17:00.070 --> 00:17:02.379
It's a rockin hard place, actually.

00:17:02.820 --> 00:17:14.440
And I know the phone calls I've had to make for HECSA, you know, there was a point in time where I was ringing, um, the local, um, inclusion officer on the hour, every hour, because nobody was replying to me.

00:17:14.519 --> 00:17:20.894
Well, if I worked in a school, for example Where I don't have my phone on me and I'm working the same hours that they are.

00:17:20.924 --> 00:17:22.204
When am I making this call?

00:17:22.765 --> 00:17:33.045
So it's, it's, and even just knowing how the system works and to be honest, even having been immersed in it for five years, I signed off Hector's EHCP.

00:17:33.045 --> 00:17:36.515
Um, he had an emergency review because of a change of placement.

00:17:37.265 --> 00:17:41.055
And then I've gone back through it with a friend who's a SENCO and she's like, well, that's, that's not right.

00:17:41.095 --> 00:17:41.654
You need to change.

00:17:41.704 --> 00:17:44.704
And I'm like, of course, if you don't know, you don't know.

00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:46.509
But they're very reluctant.

00:17:46.670 --> 00:17:53.240
The biggest thing I find, and the hardest thing I ever found, was changing their main priority.

00:17:53.569 --> 00:17:59.019
Because back in the day, when they first came out, we used to have to prioritize one to five.

00:18:00.045 --> 00:18:01.005
And that would stick.

00:18:01.025 --> 00:18:10.765
But you know that your child at five, his priorities at five are not the same as he is when he's six, or seven, or eight.

00:18:11.065 --> 00:18:11.805
It changes.

00:18:12.174 --> 00:18:13.204
And rightly so.

00:18:13.414 --> 00:18:20.265
The whole idea of the um, the um, educational healthcare plan was that it grew with the child.

00:18:21.204 --> 00:18:49.684
But it doesn't grow because it takes so much pushing and shoving to change the priority because if you have one that's social emotional and we can turn around and say at five probably, but then when they get to seven it can be communication and interaction or cognition and learning because they're that further along in their educational pathway.

00:18:50.694 --> 00:18:52.315
But we should be able to amend it.

00:18:52.355 --> 00:18:53.575
It is very difficult.

00:18:54.105 --> 00:18:56.105
And there'll be lots of people out there saying, No, it's not.

00:18:56.115 --> 00:18:56.474
No, it's not.

00:18:56.515 --> 00:18:57.055
It is.

00:18:57.674 --> 00:19:00.744
And it's, and they, and it's very reluctant to change it.

00:19:01.609 --> 00:19:03.009
And even knowing how.

00:19:03.535 --> 00:19:04.325
have any allegiance.

00:19:05.134 --> 00:19:09.045
Depending on what your priority is, depending on how much money you get.

00:19:09.775 --> 00:19:10.164
Yeah.

00:19:11.005 --> 00:19:27.464
And it is, there is so much that is tied in with money, and I really can only speak from my own personal experience with my son, but you find a school place, you manage to get accepted at the school, and then you have to go to the high, in my case, high needs funding panel.

00:19:27.799 --> 00:19:31.089
Which is a closed meeting of people that have never met me or my child.

00:19:31.160 --> 00:19:32.470
I'm not allowed to attend.

00:19:32.789 --> 00:19:34.170
I was allowed to write a letter.

00:19:34.579 --> 00:19:42.440
And, um, I think they said to me in the pre meeting with the, um, inclusion officer, try not to make it too emotive, which I completely disregarded.

00:19:42.460 --> 00:19:44.460
Cause I was like, no, no, no, you're going to hear what happened.

00:19:44.470 --> 00:19:49.250
You know, why my son needs support and why, because there isn't also, there's an element of guilt.

00:19:49.575 --> 00:19:58.674
Because I know many children who have much more, I'm going to say profound need, um, who are still in the system and unable to access the support they need.

00:19:59.375 --> 00:20:01.775
But at the same time, it's my kid, right?

00:20:01.855 --> 00:20:03.164
I'm gonna, I'm gonna fight.

00:20:03.295 --> 00:20:11.884
So, and he's, he's now safe and he's happy and I've got him, you know, the EHCP states this placement till the end of Key Stage 4.

00:20:11.884 --> 00:20:13.765
So, you know, on paper, it's fine.

00:20:13.765 --> 00:20:21.059
But then, But, of course, his needs are going to change, and his needs have changed even since he started at that school in October.

00:20:21.410 --> 00:20:28.849
Because his emotional regulation is now, um, you know, kind of, I mean, it's, I'd say under control, but that feels a bit odd, but you know what I mean.

00:20:29.339 --> 00:20:31.680
He is now, yeah,

00:20:32.035 --> 00:20:32.214
It's

00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:34.130
exactly, yeah.

00:20:34.204 --> 00:20:36.734
But it, but it's like, you know, sorry to interrupt you, but,

00:20:36.990 --> 00:20:37.130
no, I'm

00:20:37.244 --> 00:20:52.390
the higher needs funding, you know, when I, when I wrote the, the report, and the same as when you, I was writing in the EHCP, My, my whole focus was to make the reader see that this child is not just one dimension.

00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:56.019
That on there, there has to be positives.

00:20:56.019 --> 00:21:03.920
You cannot just do negatives, but those positives have to be weighed up because it's like, you know, okay, he had a bad day.

00:21:04.019 --> 00:21:05.420
Mum ran out of the cereal.

00:21:06.065 --> 00:21:09.075
That, the impact of that on the day was huge.

00:21:09.164 --> 00:21:14.204
Or, that he was meant to be going to the park, or she was meant to be going to the park, and it rained.

00:21:14.464 --> 00:21:17.394
You know, all these things have a massive impact.

00:21:17.394 --> 00:21:22.835
So, I used to say to the parents, Your worst day

00:21:23.089 --> 00:21:23.539
Yeah.

00:21:24.430 --> 00:21:25.549
I've heard this, yeah.

00:21:25.855 --> 00:21:27.595
it down your worst day.

00:21:27.835 --> 00:21:44.825
But the, but the idea for the professional who's writing the report, you have to show that this child is a whole person that has good days, that has bad days, that, you know, I feel privileged when, when we've worked out, you know, what could be a trigger?

00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:58.579
If you've had a difficulty and you've, you've done your ABC and you've looked back at what all, you know, the antecedent and then the behavior and then, you know, the consequence and you've worked out that, Oh, I've got it.

00:21:58.769 --> 00:22:00.019
That's what did it.

00:22:00.630 --> 00:22:04.980
You, it's another thing in your arsenal to turn around and say, okay, we need that.

00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:10.579
When, for instance, it's, it's assembly and it's a person they don't know coming in.

00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:13.039
Just need to give them a bit of cluing in there.

00:22:13.799 --> 00:22:15.269
Something so small.

00:22:16.069 --> 00:22:16.450
Yeah.

00:22:16.595 --> 00:22:29.365
think that that's a win win, but you have to be able to write that in your report that the people, and they are faceless, and some of them have, don't have a lot of experience for, with SEN, are reading it.

00:22:29.734 --> 00:22:33.865
But you've just got to know where the tick boxes are, and I'm sorry to say that's what it is.

00:22:34.115 --> 00:22:39.694
It's a tick box exercise, and if you hit the mark, you get what you need.

00:22:41.079 --> 00:22:57.380
I mean, from us personally, we've seen, and I know it's happened in other counties, but we have seen the Kent County Councillors referring to our children as problem children, as the mothers or parents or carers of these children, as wanting money, wanting financial reward, being lazy, the children being naughty.

00:22:57.670 --> 00:23:02.880
These are the people that make the decisions about where the funding in this county goes, and that's what they think of us and our children.

00:23:03.309 --> 00:23:12.894
And I think that is, I mean, it's made me go all kind of angry goose bumpy, because How can you trust in a system where the people at the top are saying those things?

00:23:13.424 --> 00:23:27.474
Um, and actually one thing that sort of comes to mind actually when we're talking about, um, identifying triggers is, so Hector will, um, if he is anxious, his clothes will be run and he, I will go in, I'll walk past his bedroom and there'll be clothes strewn around the room.

00:23:28.619 --> 00:23:29.960
Well, who else does this?

00:23:30.049 --> 00:23:34.509
Me! Always! Like, I'm fat, I don't fit, my clothes are horrible.

00:23:34.539 --> 00:23:40.319
And if I track back, it's always because I'm going somewhere new, or I'm doing something I'm a little bit nervous about.

00:23:40.859 --> 00:23:48.369
So now when he is struggling to find something to, to wear, we are able to say to him, kind of, what is it, what's really going on?

00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:52.900
Whereas before you would perhaps be like, Oh, for God's sake, just put it on, you know, stop being awkward.

00:23:53.380 --> 00:23:55.799
And that's why I think knowledge is power.

00:23:56.539 --> 00:24:03.660
And there's, there's, well, I'm, I'm tangenting here as a, you know, I might as well give a full example of an ADHD adult whilst talking about them, hey.

00:24:04.315 --> 00:24:16.944
But, um, one of the, a book I read recently because I'm, you know, I, I, I kind of inhale information about things I'm interested in, and there's a book called My Child Is Not Broken, or Your Child Is Not Broken, and I do have the author coming on in a couple of weeks.

00:24:17.704 --> 00:24:31.335
And one of the things in this book that I really liked was she says a label is a care instruction, and whether this has come directly from her, whether it's something I've just missed, but how can you know how to care for something, a child, unless you know what their condition is?

00:24:31.974 --> 00:24:38.414
Because when you talked about sort of grandparent and parent responses, you do get a bit of, well, she's fine.

00:24:38.424 --> 00:24:39.694
Why would you want to label her?

00:24:40.234 --> 00:24:51.974
And actually it comes down to this, the knowledge and understanding that your child might appear to be fine, but actually underneath they might be doing that kind of the stereotypical swarm where they're really peddling away.

00:24:52.404 --> 00:24:56.944
So I think, um, sorry, I really did go off on a tangent then, but I'd written it down.

00:24:56.944 --> 00:24:57.984
So I needed to get it said.

00:24:58.500 --> 00:25:20.240
Um, but that idea of identifying the kind of micro triggers or microt traumas that build up and build up things like being called scatty or forgetful or noisy or, um, you know, I overshare and I now find myself, I went on a yoga that he yesterday and I just was trying to fill the dead space and then afterwards I wanted to go round and individually apologize to everybody.

00:25:20.299 --> 00:25:20.509
'cause.

00:25:21.285 --> 00:25:28.404
You just, I don't know, I don't know, but of course the people that know me understand that that is something that I do and love me for that.

00:25:28.775 --> 00:25:30.085
And that's what I want for our children.

00:25:30.085 --> 00:25:31.605
I want them to be understood for who they are.

00:25:31.994 --> 00:25:35.295
And so many of them have got so much to offer the world.

00:25:35.785 --> 00:25:43.005
And I feel like it's almost a false economy by not giving them support now, they're not going to contribute to the, to the country and to the world as much as they might.

00:25:43.394 --> 00:26:00.275
I think I think go back go into your label now a friend of mine who is an amazing teacher She's one of my you know, you put up there gets it really, you know We will do everything she possibly can she has changed classrooms.

00:26:00.285 --> 00:26:14.305
She's done everything her son has been diagnosed as um And she was talking about, and he is a very bright boy, you know, he scored so high on, on his, um, SATs.

00:26:14.384 --> 00:26:20.164
I mean, you know, exactly what you want, but he, but he is, he is atypical.

00:26:20.585 --> 00:26:24.404
You can see it, finds things difficult, but he's very, very bright.

00:26:24.815 --> 00:26:28.464
Now she said to me, um, I haven't told him yet.

00:26:29.644 --> 00:26:31.125
And I said, that's fair enough.

00:26:31.154 --> 00:26:31.545
That's fine.

00:26:31.555 --> 00:26:32.275
He's year six.

00:26:32.634 --> 00:26:35.954
You know, when, when do you think, what do you think?

00:26:35.954 --> 00:26:37.660
And I said, do you know what, for me?

00:26:38.109 --> 00:26:48.150
I think every child has the right to know, when they're ready, because they need to know, Ah, I'm not weird, I think like this, because this.

00:26:48.785 --> 00:26:49.164
Yeah.

00:26:49.589 --> 00:26:57.809
But, she said to me, she asked him and said, when she told him, Do you, are you going to tell all your friends?

00:26:57.809 --> 00:26:58.529
And he said no.

00:26:59.470 --> 00:27:14.980
And I said, I understand that because even though schools promote it where we are, you know, diverse, we are, we, you know, we have all these things in place, what the children say to each other about each other is where we need to stop it.

00:27:15.220 --> 00:27:22.240
Because if you are diagnosed later, but all the time you hear negativity about that, oh, he does that because he's autistic.

00:27:22.359 --> 00:27:28.240
He, oh, he's rude because how can they then take on their diagnosis positively?

00:27:28.369 --> 00:27:29.369
Because that's the difference.

00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:34.859
We need to be positive because actually sometimes I think they think the right way.

00:27:34.890 --> 00:27:36.720
It's us that thinks the wrong way.

00:27:37.220 --> 00:27:59.410
Because if anybody has worked with children with ASC or a ADD or a ADHD, the joy, the laughter, the, you know, their ability to be to, to use their differences in such a fundamental way creates pleasure for everybody around them, not just others.

00:28:00.325 --> 00:28:05.525
But the adults in the room, what they say, how they see the world is amazing.

00:28:05.615 --> 00:28:11.255
So we should be celebrating that rather than saying, Oh, he does that because he has autism.

00:28:11.335 --> 00:28:13.835
He does that because he has ADHD.

00:28:14.105 --> 00:28:17.075
And you know, when we started this conversation, it was about the fiddle toy.

00:28:17.285 --> 00:28:18.795
Now I understand.

00:28:19.724 --> 00:28:21.144
And there was a huge culture.

00:28:23.204 --> 00:28:27.595
Oh, children who have multisensory, who need to bite.

00:28:27.755 --> 00:28:30.605
You always find them with holes in their sleeves.

00:28:31.134 --> 00:28:31.384
Yeah?

00:28:31.845 --> 00:28:34.194
And then they get, they brought out the chew toys.

00:28:35.924 --> 00:28:40.474
The adults in school found that to be the hardest thing.

00:28:40.875 --> 00:28:44.365
I don't understand why these children have to have these things they put in their mouth.

00:28:44.605 --> 00:28:45.845
Well, I'm not being funny.

00:28:46.154 --> 00:28:51.515
I much prefer them to have something they put in their mouth and chew at the end of the pencil, or the book, or the

00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:53.759
Or the very expensive school cardigan.

00:28:53.765 --> 00:28:54.474
Exactly.

00:28:54.474 --> 00:28:59.194
But the adults interpretation of what they think they need

00:29:00.009 --> 00:29:00.410
Yeah.

00:29:00.894 --> 00:29:02.565
is, is what clouds it.

00:29:02.565 --> 00:29:08.224
Because you know what, how do I know that that child doesn't need that to concentrate?

00:29:08.420 --> 00:29:10.339
And also, what impact does it really have?

00:29:10.339 --> 00:29:28.210
I guess you don't want an entire class with slime perhaps, but If you have a child that's clearly kind of fidgety or you can see, or even if, like I did, the parent who really knows them best says some sort of fiddle toy would be really beneficial, I just don't see why it's not, what impact it has.

00:29:28.230 --> 00:29:35.420
I mean, if they're lobbing it at the wall or sticking it in their friend's hair, then yes, but I think I would always say, well, let's try it and see.

00:29:37.160 --> 00:29:45.785
Sorry, I would just, I wrote something down then that you said, and it was about the importance of positivity, and I've really underlined this because I absolutely agree.

00:29:46.194 --> 00:29:53.714
And I, when I was first told that Hector might be autistic, my first reaction was, oh my god, what does this mean for his future?

00:29:54.259 --> 00:29:59.359
And I then went and did a lot of research, and actually I have no fears for Hector's future.

00:29:59.690 --> 00:30:01.019
I think he's going to be amazing.

00:30:01.019 --> 00:30:01.900
He is amazing.

00:30:02.339 --> 00:30:10.289
Um, but it's really interesting because Tabby, who's only six, but is very emotionally intelligent, I mean, she's a classic ADHD girl, she's very high, high achieving.

00:30:10.750 --> 00:30:14.089
And she said to me, um, Mum, I might be autistic, might I?

00:30:14.599 --> 00:30:16.240
And I said, Oh, what makes you say that?

00:30:16.349 --> 00:30:18.950
And she said, Because I'm very like Hector, and I'm very like you.

00:30:19.734 --> 00:30:30.325
And I just thought, oh wow, okay, but also I don't want my kids to ever feel a sense of shame about it because shame in autistic people is so damaging.

00:30:30.325 --> 00:30:35.285
And the statistics for, you know, self harm, suicide, addiction in all of these things.

00:30:35.555 --> 00:30:45.525
And I just think so much of it, and this is me coming at this very much, not so professional, but having lived experience is that feeling of not knowing who you are and why you behave a certain way.

00:30:45.914 --> 00:30:46.855
And I, I just.

00:30:47.680 --> 00:30:54.119
I, I, I said today but I don't know because I'm not a doctor, but yes you definitely have some characteristics.

00:30:54.855 --> 00:31:03.045
Do you know, Rosie, everything you've just said is, is down to this one thing, is our ability to be open, right?

00:31:03.299 --> 00:31:03.710
Mm hmm.

00:31:05.085 --> 00:31:16.436
not to just go, okay, because what we're doing now is we're going, we've got, we, before we had the autism diagnosis, the ADHD, you know, uh, the ODD and all that.

00:31:16.436 --> 00:31:22.894
Before we had that, you had not, uh, what they call children and difficult children with challenging behavior.

00:31:23.355 --> 00:31:27.835
Now, and we, and we knew that I, that's what the normal child does.

00:31:27.904 --> 00:31:29.664
That's the child with the difficulties.

00:31:30.375 --> 00:31:31.434
Now we've done it another way.

00:31:32.099 --> 00:31:36.509
That's the normal child, that's the autistic child, and that's the other.

00:31:36.910 --> 00:31:40.130
So all the autistic children have to behave in this way.

00:31:40.609 --> 00:31:53.089
We're not spreading it out, we're not looking at it going, Okay, if you have a family, and this comes up a lot, you have a child that is, um, already diagnosed, and then you've got siblings.

00:31:53.769 --> 00:31:56.190
The word will come up, learnt behavior.

00:31:57.240 --> 00:31:57.900
Oh, already?

00:31:57.970 --> 00:32:00.059
Oh, they've, oh no, they're not.

00:32:00.200 --> 00:32:04.299
We have to wait because it's learnt behavior from the sibling.

00:32:04.680 --> 00:32:13.940
Well, If that is true, then you're taking away that child's ability to understand appropriate behavior.

00:32:14.299 --> 00:32:16.769
Hang on a minute, isn't that one of the criteria?

00:32:17.690 --> 00:32:20.470
Not understanding what is appropriate behavior.

00:32:20.809 --> 00:32:22.789
So, we're shooting ourselves in the foot.

00:32:23.730 --> 00:32:25.670
We're trying to extend our time.

00:32:25.880 --> 00:32:31.019
I'm really sorry to say, primary schools want to hold children in a holding pattern.

00:32:32.099 --> 00:32:38.190
They'll do everything, they'll put things in and we're coping really well and we get them all the way to year six and then we go bye.

00:32:39.279 --> 00:32:44.799
The child goes, the need goes, the difficulty goes, and it's somebody else's problem.

00:32:45.019 --> 00:32:53.710
And we all know that when a child transitions into year seven, even a child without difficulties have difficulties.

00:32:55.039 --> 00:32:58.549
Now, I mean, this is slightly diverse, but I really thought I need to say this.

00:32:59.089 --> 00:32:59.839
I was on the train

00:32:59.859 --> 00:33:00.599
Then it's not just me.

00:33:00.606 --> 00:33:00.984
having me.

00:33:02.045 --> 00:33:07.795
And I met a lovely family, um, a lady and her three children.

00:33:08.134 --> 00:33:10.865
One was five, one was six, and one was fourteen.

00:33:12.025 --> 00:33:20.795
And she sat next to me and she was, you know, making sure, anyway, just got talking and this just came out.

00:33:20.815 --> 00:33:25.115
It all, she was telling me how difficult her 14 year old was having.

00:33:25.115 --> 00:33:27.194
She's in isolation all the time.

00:33:27.454 --> 00:33:30.335
The younger one has got a diagnosis of autism.

00:33:30.585 --> 00:33:32.384
She wants to get the middle one.

00:33:32.835 --> 00:33:37.315
And we just talked the whole journey and I, and everything we're talking about.

00:33:37.910 --> 00:33:39.210
she's experiencing.

00:33:39.369 --> 00:33:42.119
She said to me, I, herself, she's bipolar.

00:33:43.309 --> 00:33:48.190
And I said, well, you seem very, um, open to it.

00:33:48.210 --> 00:33:50.460
And she said, I, I'm just starting, you know, one medication.

00:33:50.460 --> 00:33:51.859
We're still trying to work it out.

00:33:51.859 --> 00:33:56.240
So technically her, her 14 year old who is struggling is a carer, right?

00:33:57.630 --> 00:34:07.299
So all the time we were talking, all she kept saying to me was, I've tried this, I've tried that the I've been here.

00:34:07.299 --> 00:34:08.090
I've been there.

00:34:08.510 --> 00:34:10.619
And all, all I could hear from her was despair.

00:34:12.010 --> 00:34:17.570
All I could hear was, I don't know whether stepping back from my 14 year old, but then how can you step back?

00:34:17.570 --> 00:34:19.260
But she said, I need the school to see it.

00:34:19.969 --> 00:34:23.829
Why are we still talking about the same thing?

00:34:24.059 --> 00:34:29.559
The government wants to talk about children's mental health, but we're not getting in there early enough.

00:34:30.050 --> 00:34:31.389
We're waiting for them to fail, aren't we?

00:34:31.400 --> 00:34:38.840
Well, and, and it's something that I'm hearing a lot, um, because obviously I was, and I used, I was fortunate because EHCP at six.

00:34:39.389 --> 00:34:45.880
I don't think you get, well, no, it's funny you talk about being on the train, because I was on the train with all of the kids and, and John up to London.

00:34:45.929 --> 00:34:54.000
And, um, I was sitting there, a teacher, and as you do, you know, and I mentioned that Hect was in the specialist school and she sort of did a real double take.

00:34:54.000 --> 00:34:54.079
Okay.

00:34:54.099 --> 00:34:55.960
And she's like, has he got any HCP?

00:34:56.750 --> 00:34:57.809
I said, yeah, he does.

00:34:57.849 --> 00:34:59.090
He got one when he was six.

00:34:59.119 --> 00:35:14.929
And she's just, Oh, because now in order to get access to this support, you have to be failing so badly or to such an extreme, whereas Hector is, I mean, for starters, he was sitting on a train.

00:35:15.150 --> 00:35:19.110
He was coloring, which three, four years ago wouldn't have happened.

00:35:19.119 --> 00:35:22.559
I would have, you know, deployed the iPad and they'd have been running up and down the carriage.

00:35:22.590 --> 00:35:22.780
But.

00:35:23.400 --> 00:35:59.594
That just shows what difference the correct, uh, parenting and, and teaching makes, but I'm sorry, that makes me sound really arrogant, but you know what I mean, but this, this idea that, um, that we know, I mean, medically we know, and that so much of neurodiversity, and particularly autism, goes on in the mind, and yet unless they are actively displaying, like, I mean, we're going back to kind of back to our original topic really, but unless they are looking autistic, it's, it's, Well, and you could almost feel that, well, does he deserve that EHCP?

00:35:59.664 --> 00:36:04.005
You said to me, he, he was lucky to get his at six.

00:36:04.085 --> 00:36:05.755
I don't think luck comes into it.

00:36:06.465 --> 00:36:09.775
I think, I think it's not about being lucky.

00:36:09.795 --> 00:36:13.534
It's about your drive to get in there.

00:36:14.045 --> 00:36:20.244
And, and you know, it, sometimes it takes a couple of years for a parent to truly embrace.

00:36:22.030 --> 00:36:26.530
what's going on and that's not their fault because it is a journey and it is a bereavement.

00:36:26.530 --> 00:36:34.960
I don't care what anyone says, it's a bereavement because we don't get a manual when we have a baby, we're just told this is what you do, whatever, whatever, whatever.

00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:38.539
So it's not luck, it's entitlement.

00:36:38.550 --> 00:36:42.760
He was entitled, he has the rights of every other child in that cluster.

00:36:43.099 --> 00:36:57.744
And we'll get on to that bit, but My fear, because, um, when, if you like, the trend came about of getting private diagnosis, the local authorities were not best pleased.

00:36:58.195 --> 00:37:06.784
But the fact that the, in the local authorities, and I think even to date now, what is it, two, two and a bit years before you even get close to a diagnosis now?

00:37:07.269 --> 00:37:12.590
Oh, I think, um, I think probably even longer, I think you'd be looking five to six in a lot of counties.

00:37:12.610 --> 00:37:22.340
It's, by which point, the micro traumas and some major traumas that will be experienced in those five to six years, well, they want to wait till the children break.

00:37:22.380 --> 00:37:23.659
That's the way to do it, right?

00:37:24.605 --> 00:37:27.835
And also, most of the time, they're moving on.

00:37:28.809 --> 00:37:29.690
Of course, yeah.

00:37:29.914 --> 00:37:38.554
Yeah, so they're moving into secondary provision and then it comes, and we all know how difficult secondary school is without additional needs, right?

00:37:39.054 --> 00:37:43.085
So, we're just layering it, we're just layering it on and on.

00:37:43.105 --> 00:37:46.005
Anyway, the trend came up and people began to pay.

00:37:46.659 --> 00:37:58.300
And therefore, and we're talking about the same doctors, the same, all exactly the same people doing the, doing the reports as they would do on the NHS, right?

00:37:58.630 --> 00:37:59.530
Local authority wise.

00:37:59.949 --> 00:38:02.659
So they couldn't dispute it because they use these people.

00:38:03.465 --> 00:38:25.465
It then got to the point where they were saying, oh, so many, oh, we're getting so many people, so many children being diagnosed now, can't cope, we need to, we need to rein it back now because these EHCPs, you know, old fashioned statements were one thing, but the EHCP, we're just giving them out one after, it's not about giving them out.

00:38:26.070 --> 00:38:29.320
It's about recognizing the need.

00:38:29.489 --> 00:38:37.900
I mean, I've had parents come to me and say, Oh, but I was told you don't, I don't really need, we don't really need it.

00:38:37.900 --> 00:38:40.110
And I say, okay, you don't really need it.

00:38:40.110 --> 00:38:41.809
Let's say, let's, let's look at the scenario.

00:38:42.409 --> 00:38:48.719
You, you take your child to, to a new school, whether that's a new primary or your secondary.

00:38:49.579 --> 00:38:53.150
Wouldn't you want to be able to say, here you go.

00:38:53.239 --> 00:38:58.099
I can tell you and I'm the best person to tell you about my child, but you won't listen to me.

00:38:58.340 --> 00:39:02.849
Because as far as you are concerned, I don't have a teaching qualification, so I don't really know.

00:39:03.179 --> 00:39:08.829
But if I give you a document that you have to abide by, you will know my child, right?

00:39:09.780 --> 00:39:12.329
So I said, so what's better?

00:39:13.289 --> 00:39:16.980
Sending them in with nothing or saying, here's how they present.

00:39:17.190 --> 00:39:18.360
These are the difficulties.

00:39:19.394 --> 00:39:20.215
Every school,

00:39:20.894 --> 00:39:23.275
sorry to interrupt, what is the reluctance then?

00:39:23.284 --> 00:39:26.585
Is it funding because it costs more to support a child with an AHCP?

00:39:26.835 --> 00:39:32.014
I'm just, I'm starting to see what, because when you describe it like that, there's almost a question of why doesn't every child have one?

00:39:32.704 --> 00:39:44.695
Because, you know, the idea that you would go into any new school with a full document of your, the best way to teach you, the things that would be problematic, and that's probably a bit generous, I don't want to say every child, but.

00:39:45.280 --> 00:39:46.820
That makes so much sense to me.

00:39:47.164 --> 00:39:59.224
I think, I think what it was like, I mean, for instance, right, if we're looking at, um, a, a, a, a, an EHCP, some of them are really well written, and some of them are not.

00:39:59.474 --> 00:40:08.405
Some of them, over my years, I've looked at and I've gone, how on earth, did this get passed via the local authority because it says nothing.

00:40:09.164 --> 00:40:13.355
the whole idea of an EHCP is to educate the person who is reading it, right?

00:40:14.405 --> 00:40:19.304
It's not about me saying, I'll take your child and he's got the EHCP.

00:40:19.304 --> 00:40:21.775
So it means I have to put things in place.

00:40:22.114 --> 00:40:31.304
It's meant to educate me in order to say, for, to make, get him to his, pure, truthful potential that is within him.

00:40:31.864 --> 00:40:34.885
These are the strategies that we've used and found that work.

00:40:35.335 --> 00:40:37.824
And actually, these are the ones that haven't worked.

00:40:37.905 --> 00:40:44.434
So, you know, we've really shown, you know, the whole, this didn't work, so we stopped doing it.

00:40:45.440 --> 00:40:46.829
But these worked.

00:40:48.139 --> 00:40:52.110
The problem is we have to A, read it, B, implement it.

00:40:53.199 --> 00:40:55.949
And that takes time and that takes effort.

00:40:56.860 --> 00:41:01.030
I mean, when we had the old fashioned statements, you got money.

00:41:01.889 --> 00:41:11.380
When you've got an EHCP and you have high needs funding, that funding, in my years of experience, mostly went to support.

00:41:12.309 --> 00:41:14.199
It never paid enough for support.

00:41:14.400 --> 00:41:26.925
The school would always Top it off, if that was in the lines of a one to one support or ELSA or, um, one of the other, um, interventions that you could do.

00:41:26.945 --> 00:41:30.554
And we're not talking, you know, extra maths, extra this, extra that.

00:41:30.585 --> 00:41:39.014
But it's, it's having, I've always said having a body that can be the bridge between the curriculum and your child.

00:41:39.780 --> 00:41:46.530
Because let's face it, maybe your child going into maths is great, loves it, because numbers never change, right?

00:41:47.079 --> 00:41:49.369
A 2 is a 2, a 1 is a 1.

00:41:49.369 --> 00:41:50.300
But when you

00:41:50.409 --> 00:41:51.219
you get to algebra.

00:41:52.159 --> 00:41:55.780
except for algebra, but when you come to literacy, you come to writing.

00:41:56.340 --> 00:41:57.539
Things change.

00:41:57.550 --> 00:42:05.869
I mean, I had one child say to me, one of the questions was in the SATs, it said, um, How do you think the character felt?

00:42:06.699 --> 00:42:12.880
And he happened to have an EHCP, and he happened to have funding, and he had a reader, which was me.

00:42:13.679 --> 00:42:15.719
And he said, Well, I don't know.

00:42:17.494 --> 00:42:19.824
I don't know what he thinks like and I said, Aha.

00:42:20.284 --> 00:42:22.434
Okay, let's change the question.

00:42:23.224 --> 00:42:24.985
How would you feel?

00:42:25.605 --> 00:42:26.534
Oh, I got it.

00:42:27.239 --> 00:42:27.730
So what you're

00:42:28.155 --> 00:42:33.405
takes is that little bit of Thinking the way they think.

00:42:33.505 --> 00:42:44.775
How can you expect, it's like someone coming to me saying to me Well, my toilet doesn't work Juliana I think you need to go and fix it and I'd stand in front of it and go okay, and they'd go No, get on with it.

00:42:45.219 --> 00:42:47.070
And I'll be like, well, where's the manual?

00:42:47.619 --> 00:42:48.619
Well, no, you just do it.

00:42:48.619 --> 00:42:51.059
How can you do it?

00:42:51.114 --> 00:43:01.164
And it's, it's, what I'm hearing is this idea of teaching to the child, which I, and I say this quite often, but when you look at a classroom, we're still teaching in a quite Victorian way, aren't we?

00:43:01.175 --> 00:43:05.405
We've got somebody stood at the front and a figure of authority, don't question me, I know best.

00:43:06.014 --> 00:43:12.065
And the children have to sit very quietly and they have to listen and, you know, it, it not much has changed.

00:43:12.114 --> 00:43:15.514
And for a large percentage of children, that works.

00:43:15.514 --> 00:43:15.684
Yes.

00:43:15.684 --> 00:43:15.699
Okay.

00:43:16.090 --> 00:43:25.750
They respect the authority, they, you know, some, and actually some autistic children really thrive on that, in that environment, but not all, not every day, and not necessarily in all schools.

00:43:26.380 --> 00:43:40.175
But the ideas that we teach to the child, it just feels, Like, we've kind of forgotten the child in all of this, and I, like you, I don't want to blame the schools and the teachers, because every teacher I know is working their arse off to make the world a better place.

00:43:40.644 --> 00:43:57.489
And one of my closest friends is a SENCO, and she, I see her working till 1 o'clock in the morning, you know, trying to get these forms done and this funding put in, but I, it's a systematic failure, because, I had no idea that often a child with an EHCP will cost the school.

00:43:57.550 --> 00:44:10.619
Um, and again, it feels very mercenary to talk about them like this, but where's the incentive then for school to take a child with an EHCP and actually even to hear you describing it as like a manual to educate the setting that they're in.

00:44:12.250 --> 00:44:13.980
we've lost sight of what an EHCP is.

00:44:14.360 --> 00:44:23.099
It's like, we think of it as a means to getting them into a school or getting them support instead of being a guide to who they are.

00:44:23.099 --> 00:44:39.239
And I think that's where this kind of almost grabby idea, you know, we all scrabbling around to get this, this document and it becomes a bit like a bum fight almost, the venom that you see in, in, um, especially, uh, especially as parenting groups and things, it gets very.

00:44:40.125 --> 00:44:47.614
And actually, again, to digress, but I used to run a, um, a playgroup for neurodivergent children, not a playgroup, like a youth club, parents came too.

00:44:48.514 --> 00:44:51.344
I wasn't looking after them on my own, I'll leave that to you guys.

00:44:51.804 --> 00:44:59.485
Um, but one of the dads, Kate, said to me, um, he just kind of looked at Hector and said, looked at me and went, is Hector even autistic?

00:45:00.394 --> 00:45:04.215
I just thought that's actually Well, it's ableism, isn't it?

00:45:04.414 --> 00:45:08.235
It's, um, and that's coming from a parent within that community.

00:45:08.744 --> 00:45:09.784
So, watch out.

00:45:11.170 --> 00:45:14.659
The, the only thing I can say, I mean, we've got two things here.

00:45:14.659 --> 00:45:16.170
So we've got the schools, we've got the parents.

00:45:16.960 --> 00:45:18.800
Sometimes I look at parents.

00:45:19.255 --> 00:45:24.025
And I think, I need to remember where they, how far they've come along.

00:45:24.405 --> 00:45:34.764
Because if you're fighting and you're getting nowhere, your natural reaction is, well you talk rubbish, you know, nobody's helping me, nobody's supporting me.

00:45:34.764 --> 00:45:41.585
So I think that whole thing about, you know, getting an EHCP, it's like the Holy Grail.

00:45:42.195 --> 00:45:45.594
But it's because they have been made to fight for it.

00:45:45.974 --> 00:45:51.644
They've not been given it or been told about it and saying, this is going to able your child.

00:45:51.655 --> 00:45:52.744
This is going to help you.

00:45:52.925 --> 00:45:55.025
It's like, Oh, well, you're never going to get it.

00:45:55.344 --> 00:45:56.565
So many children don't get it.

00:45:56.565 --> 00:45:58.414
And you always start with the negative.

00:45:58.875 --> 00:45:59.414
And also,

00:45:59.525 --> 00:46:01.065
that's what drives it.

00:46:01.514 --> 00:46:05.114
I was sorry, I just quick, wanted to say sorry while it's in my head.

00:46:05.804 --> 00:46:08.199
Um, The fun, the schools.

00:46:08.280 --> 00:46:12.550
So for example, the school that my son is in, they will only accept children within the HTP.

00:46:13.030 --> 00:46:18.699
So for a lot of parents, it really, it kind of is this holy grail because without it, you won't get into a specialist school.

00:46:18.719 --> 00:46:20.400
They will not take a child without one.

00:46:20.829 --> 00:46:31.860
Um, and if you have to go to the independent school route, because a lot of independent schools are popping up now who are taking children and they do tend to be quite selective, which is something I do want to talk to you about actually.

00:46:32.344 --> 00:46:38.574
Um, I guess they're not held to the same, uh, constraints, I guess, as, as, um, uh, local authority schools.

00:46:39.105 --> 00:46:41.094
But you, you can have your fees paid.

00:46:41.275 --> 00:46:48.045
And often, this is a lot cheaper, actually, than putting them into a specialist school, but it means that you need the AHCP to do so.

00:46:48.724 --> 00:46:57.920
So, this piece of paper that's meant to be a support for children, it actually becomes this kind of real, Like a closed door, doesn't it?

00:46:57.920 --> 00:47:01.199
And I've had, I know people who've had to go to tribunal.

00:47:01.269 --> 00:47:11.969
Um, I know somebody who's, and I'm obviously not going to name names, but I have a child, a friend with a child who's doubly incontinent, um, working four years below expected, and they can't get any EHCP.

00:47:12.820 --> 00:47:14.090
is that possible?

00:47:15.744 --> 00:47:16.724
And you know what?

00:47:17.054 --> 00:47:37.289
In my opinion, and I'm thinking back to two children, twins, came in, um, and very similar situation, doubly in concert, non verbal, which doesn't mean they need to go to specialist provision, because non verbal is a whole different ballgame, but fighting to get them an EHCP.

00:47:38.619 --> 00:47:42.340
Because again, it's about the forever moving ceiling.

00:47:42.579 --> 00:47:45.760
But their parents, they became hostile.

00:47:45.800 --> 00:47:49.980
They became hostile to the school and hostile towards the process.

00:47:50.230 --> 00:47:52.719
Because like you're saying, tell me why.

00:47:52.849 --> 00:47:58.750
In all the logical things, tell me that these children are They were six.

00:47:59.050 --> 00:48:00.949
And still wearing nappies.

00:48:01.989 --> 00:48:07.389
A, the indignity of having to be changed every day at school, but, and still couldn't get any HCP.

00:48:08.889 --> 00:48:14.849
That's where I think the hostility from other parents and, and for saying, you know, Oh, is he really even autistic?

00:48:15.079 --> 00:48:18.820
Is because if they had to fight, that's hard to get their child with

00:48:18.940 --> 00:48:21.260
How come I've seemingly breezed to get it, yeah.

00:48:21.934 --> 00:48:25.355
that's the thing is, you know, Oh God, they breeze through it, but that's not true.

00:48:25.364 --> 00:48:28.034
Nobody breezes through this, this process.

00:48:28.264 --> 00:48:46.454
No, this, this process is probably one of the hardest, exhausting it for those who are fighting it, let alone the child who is still having to deal with all those problems at school, which is why I'm sorry to say, and I'm going to say the words and everybody hates it, exclusions.

00:48:46.835 --> 00:48:50.155
I know we don't want our children to be excluded, but sometimes.

00:48:50.775 --> 00:48:52.724
That has to be the route you go down.

00:48:53.715 --> 00:48:54.724
And what do you mean by that?

00:48:54.744 --> 00:48:58.744
Do you mean it's in the school, would exclude or the parent would make the decision to withdraw?

00:48:59.105 --> 00:48:59.204
both.

00:48:59.744 --> 00:49:00.224
Yeah.

00:49:00.494 --> 00:49:00.914
Both.

00:49:01.514 --> 00:49:08.605
Because, you know, I had one child and he was adopted and he had all that, all the trauma that went with that.

00:49:08.605 --> 00:49:20.704
But he also did, he, another very bright child, and his mum decided that she couldn't put him through the trauma of every day going into school.

00:49:20.744 --> 00:49:29.364
And she made a choice and she said, until I get what I need from the local authority, I am, I am keeping him at home.

00:49:29.675 --> 00:49:30.025
And.

00:49:30.635 --> 00:49:32.414
Everybody went, Oh, you can't do that.

00:49:32.815 --> 00:49:35.244
She said, okay, but you're ringing me every day.

00:49:35.585 --> 00:49:36.784
He's coming home.

00:49:36.914 --> 00:49:38.065
He's been fighting.

00:49:38.065 --> 00:49:39.434
He's been absconding.

00:49:39.445 --> 00:49:41.364
He's been, you know, climbing the fences.

00:49:41.364 --> 00:49:48.594
He's been standing on where, you know, where's the balance, the trauma exists, but we still keep doing it.

00:49:49.204 --> 00:49:53.454
So she's made, she made a choice EHCP.

00:49:53.614 --> 00:50:00.454
However, going onto the independence, the local authority breached their own set of rules.

00:50:00.485 --> 00:50:02.255
They didn't do it in a timely fashion.

00:50:03.605 --> 00:50:09.385
Therefore, she got the, like, the independent school she wanted paid for via the local authority.

00:50:09.525 --> 00:50:14.114
Because there wasn't a provision out there that could meet his needs.

00:50:14.440 --> 00:50:14.719
Yeah.

00:50:14.840 --> 00:50:16.469
And Hectors is an independent provision.

00:50:16.480 --> 00:50:19.829
It, they only take, um, uh, children with EHCPs, you see?

00:50:20.219 --> 00:50:26.340
So, um, and the cost per child is, and I say, it is, it's fast.

00:50:26.340 --> 00:50:34.090
And actually when I went, um, cause I got an email on Valentine's day, lucky me, saying that he actually hadn't got his place for year seven.

00:50:34.090 --> 00:50:37.800
It was a clerical error, but, um, well, it wasn't an error.

00:50:38.019 --> 00:50:46.510
It's a pro, you know, it's part of the process, but the kind of, The floor fell from beneath me and I'm thinking, well, what on earth do I do now?

00:50:46.920 --> 00:50:59.280
Um, because I, then you've got to go back to the high needs, higher funding panel, high cost panel, but actually then in conversation with, um, the representative KCC, she just mentioned, um, well, how does he get to school?

00:50:59.340 --> 00:51:01.460
Are you claiming for, uh, for transport?

00:51:01.599 --> 00:51:04.199
And I said, Oh no, we take him cause it's only 15 minutes up the road.

00:51:05.139 --> 00:51:07.650
And she thought, Oh, Oh, that makes a big difference.

00:51:08.179 --> 00:51:10.099
And that saved him 30, 000 pounds.

00:51:10.925 --> 00:51:12.655
30, 000.

00:51:14.114 --> 00:51:17.215
But do you know though, that's fine.

00:51:18.664 --> 00:51:21.235
You taking him to school every day, that's fine.

00:51:22.525 --> 00:51:24.375
But when we're building independence,

00:51:24.965 --> 00:51:25.454
Mm hmm.

00:51:25.614 --> 00:51:27.364
we have to think about these things.

00:51:28.105 --> 00:51:29.094
you're right, actually.

00:51:31.704 --> 00:51:34.344
There are so many different ways to look at it.

00:51:34.844 --> 00:51:39.465
You know, you've been told you didn't get his plays, you didn't get So you're like, okay, so now what do I do?

00:51:39.465 --> 00:51:42.894
Do I send him to the local, um, secondary school?

00:51:44.224 --> 00:51:46.534
Knowing he's going to fail.

00:51:47.085 --> 00:51:52.355
Well, actually, I pulled him out of, um, year, year five, um, in October.

00:51:52.914 --> 00:51:54.255
No, year six in October.

00:51:54.684 --> 00:51:57.135
Um, he went back, he struggled in year five.

00:51:57.974 --> 00:52:00.315
Hang on, no, let me say that again because I've not got that right.

00:52:00.945 --> 00:52:07.244
He was struggling in year five, um, he'd gone from being very kind of confident and achieving as expected.

00:52:07.744 --> 00:52:19.414
And the school, who I have to say, were very, very supportive to me and my family and to my son, but they had the limited resources, even though he was in an SRP, and we could see that he was going under.

00:52:19.945 --> 00:52:29.074
And he was either going to be forced to achieve academically, or he would be sort of, you know, Just playing with fiddle toys and they couldn't bridge that gap.

00:52:29.565 --> 00:52:32.284
So we made the decision to pull him out of education.

00:52:32.335 --> 00:52:39.635
Um, we had plans to use a online learning, um, platform because nobody wants to be educated by my, me.

00:52:39.635 --> 00:53:01.750
I'm, I'm, patience is not a virtue I possess, but as it happened, and I don't know whether it was as a result of pulling him out of, um, of education, we did get this placement because I suppose you, But you're right, you have to make, and you have to have the balls to say, and again, we go back to this idea of parents being able to, because how many parents are both out of work, or have other small children running around?

00:53:02.110 --> 00:53:05.340
For us, we've got a spare office space that we could have set up for him.

00:53:05.659 --> 00:53:16.170
You know, these are all things that, that meant that it was a viable option for me, where it might not necessarily be for others, but, You do have to kind of take a stand and you do have to be the squeaky wheel.

00:53:16.219 --> 00:53:20.420
And just on another, my daughter's been allocated a school for secondary.

00:53:20.420 --> 00:53:30.500
I've got two in year six, going up to year seven and I, she wasn't allocated any of our choices and the school that she has been allocated is, is a school that, um, she won't be going to.

00:53:30.869 --> 00:53:37.829
And so we've had to say, we've had to, and in all the correspondence, it says, don't decline your place because your child might end up without a place in September.

00:53:37.829 --> 00:53:42.414
Um, But if we accept this school place, there's no incentive for the local authority to find an alternative.

00:53:42.934 --> 00:53:43.567
And they won't.

00:53:43.567 --> 00:53:47.505
Because as soon as you say, Yes, I'll do it.

00:53:47.755 --> 00:53:48.914
Yes, she'll go, that's it.

00:53:48.994 --> 00:53:52.074
She then Then her name will then go to the bottom.

00:53:52.224 --> 00:53:54.574
And then and you'll, you'll have to start again.

00:53:54.994 --> 00:54:02.625
You know, all the things we're talking about here, the biggest thing I want to say, we'll get on to schools, actually teachers in a minute, because I think that I've been a bit hard on them.

00:54:03.715 --> 00:54:08.864
The hardest thing to do with a child is to build self esteem.

00:54:09.014 --> 00:54:27.869
Once that self esteem goes down, it is like pushing a stone uphill, because to bring back self belief in yourself is So hard, you know, they talk about resilience.

00:54:28.050 --> 00:54:36.949
They talk, talk about us to, you know, we need to up the children's resilience, but nobody really does it resilience in the inappropriate way you have to experience.

00:54:37.000 --> 00:54:41.989
It's about giving our children the smarts to be able to make the strategies themselves.

00:54:42.239 --> 00:54:45.940
We, it's like any child, not just because they've got additional needs.

00:54:46.239 --> 00:54:49.170
It's, we do it with ordinary children, so called normal children.

00:54:49.699 --> 00:55:02.545
It's about giving them, The autonomy on them, on their own learning, you know, you, with your children, you know, you can say to them, and is it, is it age related or is it their additional needs?

00:55:02.864 --> 00:55:05.025
When they go, no, no.

00:55:05.445 --> 00:55:11.655
And you go, and just because he's got autism, it doesn't take away the fact that he'll go into his teenage years.

00:55:11.795 --> 00:55:13.255
Hormones will start to raid.

00:55:13.829 --> 00:55:22.769
So we have to give them the autonomy to learn, to make their own strategies, to make their own decisions because we won't be able to make them for them.

00:55:23.349 --> 00:55:25.690
And that starts down here.

00:55:25.860 --> 00:55:27.550
That starts at five.

00:55:27.780 --> 00:55:34.460
That starts at, you know what, if you're going to lay on the floor and have a tantrum because you want what that somebody else has got.

00:55:35.619 --> 00:55:36.949
We have to go through that, right?

00:55:37.429 --> 00:55:40.369
We've got to work that one out because they have to work it out.

00:55:40.710 --> 00:55:43.559
It doesn't matter whether they've got additional needs.

00:55:43.559 --> 00:55:45.320
We still have to do the same things.

00:55:46.179 --> 00:55:47.570
But people are afraid.

00:55:48.429 --> 00:55:50.909
Oh, give it to them because we don't want a scene.

00:55:51.059 --> 00:55:53.679
Give it to them because we don't want them to disrupt the classroom.

00:55:54.030 --> 00:55:59.150
And I am absolutely 100 percent behind every child has the right to learn.

00:56:00.079 --> 00:56:01.590
Every child has the right to learn.

00:56:02.045 --> 00:56:12.704
But when you've got a child with additional needs and you are making them Stay within an environment that you know is building their anxiety.

00:56:12.925 --> 00:56:14.675
What else is going to happen?

00:56:15.130 --> 00:56:17.110
Well, actually, I'm thinking of SATs.

00:56:17.199 --> 00:56:19.139
Um, you, you touched on them earlier.

00:56:19.530 --> 00:56:20.860
And, uh, I, I don't know.

00:56:20.969 --> 00:56:24.090
Is it countrywide where they all do their mock SATs at the same time?

00:56:24.219 --> 00:56:24.719
I, I don't know.

00:56:25.480 --> 00:56:28.980
But, uh, Hector's school are, aren't doing them.

00:56:29.059 --> 00:56:33.219
Um, but Holly, my, my other daughter, my daughter from year six, they are.

00:56:33.934 --> 00:56:45.434
And she's not been particularly stressed by them because we don't, we've made a real, um, thing of, it's testing the school, not you, um, you really shouldn't revise for these, you know, this is to see where they are kind of thing.

00:56:45.925 --> 00:56:53.454
And I don't think I even opened my eldest son's results because I've made such a, you know, these don't matter, they're not a reflection on you kind of thing.

00:56:54.204 --> 00:57:06.375
Um, but I, I watched a video, I was sent a video, um, by a mother of a son at my son's school who, uh, at his old school, sorry, who has got quite a large social media following.

00:57:06.875 --> 00:57:21.315
He's quite vocal, um, and she posted this video, and I can talk about it because it's a public platform, I believe, and she, and it's about how distressed he has been, um, that he's been banging his head on the wall, um, you know, just, she's been crying, he's been crying, the teacher's been crying.

00:57:22.074 --> 00:57:22.925
And I'm watching this video.

00:57:23.744 --> 00:57:27.635
And now, it's not my place to tell anybody how to parent, but I'm just thinking, why has he gone in?

00:57:28.625 --> 00:57:29.525
Why have you sent him in?

00:57:30.644 --> 00:57:36.614
My attitude would have been, this is causing my child so much distress, that you either give him something else to do or he stays at home.

00:57:36.614 --> 00:57:38.454
Mmm.

00:57:38.454 --> 00:57:40.295
Mm

00:57:41.045 --> 00:57:50.144
You have to be brave enough to because believe you me if he if he is you know academically able, they want him there,

00:57:50.485 --> 00:57:50.885
Yeah.

00:57:51.144 --> 00:57:51.534
right?

00:57:52.275 --> 00:57:56.264
So you have to be brave enough to turn around and say, no, it's not for us.

00:57:56.715 --> 00:57:57.974
It's causing too much aggravation.

00:57:58.405 --> 00:58:24.315
But it's, but when we talk about SATs, we, you know, the stress that it causes all the children, not, I mean, I don't, anyone who says oh, my child is not, as soon as they get in, the fact that their tables are changed, that they sit in different places, and they, you know, we're not allowed to talk, and yada, yada, and believe me, I've been there, I've done it, that alone, changing your environment for any child

00:58:25.894 --> 00:58:45.405
And also you're putting this idea of, um, pass and failure, which, uh, we were in Kent where we still have the, um, 11 plus, which already, I mean, my thoughts on that are, I mean, I, I have a son who's getting A stars at GCSE level in year eight, nine already, and he did not pass the Kent test.

00:58:45.554 --> 00:58:52.460
So for me, it tells me everything I need to know, but, um, They've already been tested and told that they're either academic or not, and they're 10.

00:58:53.250 --> 00:58:58.909
And then you go to throw another test at them that's going to score them against all the children in the country, send this letter home to parents.

00:58:58.920 --> 00:59:01.110
Now some parents will take this very seriously.

00:59:01.489 --> 00:59:17.880
Or, or, perhaps too seriously, and will be, you know, why haven't you scored as, I, it, I'm not saying that they should never have, the resilience aspect of, yes, and this was one of the things this, this parent was saying in her video was, he's going to have to do driving tests, GCSEs, and all these sorts of things.

00:59:18.945 --> 00:59:30.454
Yes, potentially, potentially, but that's not a test of their academic ability that bears no reflection on how they learn or what they're going on to achieve.

00:59:30.894 --> 00:59:34.244
So I think there are certain things that I do have to push Hector to do.

00:59:34.505 --> 00:59:39.114
There are certain things that are non negotiable and I have my, I would say I'm firm but fair.

00:59:39.355 --> 01:00:07.559
So, that you, you know, he's expected to bring his laundry down just like the others, he's expected to wash, he's expected to keep his room, not, you know, I'm not militant, but I also expect them to adhere to some base family rules, but then we will grant him equity, so he get, he has a timer, and again, this is something he's introduced himself, he will set a timer at 10 minute intervals, um, so he's aware of how much YouTube he watches, which I'm really proud of, but also, he will do it, so we'll say, okay, set your timer, we're going to leave for school in 10 minutes, and we'll see you in 10 minutes.

01:00:07.869 --> 01:00:12.960
So, yes, we are doing the reminders, but he's having to action them, if that makes sense.

01:00:12.969 --> 01:00:20.630
So, it's, he is held accountable to the same moral code as the rest of the family, but we'll also help support him finding other strategies as well.

01:00:21.664 --> 01:00:34.235
But it's, but it's, exam stress is probably one of the most, secondary schools causes all the other things we talk about, self harm and all the other things that we talk about.

01:00:35.094 --> 01:00:42.534
The issue is, and it's always been my issue, is they have to have the strategies and the understanding of why they're doing it.

01:00:42.925 --> 01:00:47.275
So when you say to these, I don't know, these year four children that come in.

01:00:48.184 --> 01:00:50.885
And they sit there and they're, don't worry about it.

01:00:50.885 --> 01:00:51.664
It's fine.

01:00:51.664 --> 01:00:52.284
It doesn't matter.

01:00:53.315 --> 01:00:54.414
Well, it does matter really.

01:00:54.974 --> 01:00:56.974
So, let's teach them why it matters.

01:00:57.614 --> 01:00:59.804
Let's try and alleviate some of the stress that way.

01:01:00.114 --> 01:01:01.864
Again, it goes back to the strategies.

01:01:01.875 --> 01:01:03.445
It goes back to finding a way.

01:01:03.545 --> 01:01:05.695
It's a bit like, how do you study?

01:01:05.925 --> 01:01:07.005
How do you, how do you revise?

01:01:08.264 --> 01:01:12.755
Let's teach, if we can teach that, why can't we teach about why you feel stressful?

01:01:12.764 --> 01:01:14.394
What's making you feel stressful?

01:01:14.704 --> 01:01:22.835
Because if you talk to year four children doing their SATs, of the atypical children, 90 percent will say, I don't want to let my mum down.

01:01:22.885 --> 01:01:24.135
I don't want to let my teacher down.

01:01:25.105 --> 01:01:29.264
So therefore, how do, how do we relate that to, well, this is about you.

01:01:31.335 --> 01:01:34.855
You know, it's a bit like the, you know, the arithmetic test you do every week.

01:01:35.255 --> 01:01:44.315
You know, I, when I did it, I would never in a million years ask the children to swap papers to mark somebody else's paper.

01:01:44.869 --> 01:01:46.199
Yeah, of course.

01:01:46.855 --> 01:01:47.905
Other teachers did it.

01:01:47.985 --> 01:01:48.764
Other people did it.

01:01:48.764 --> 01:01:50.085
And they were like, well, why not?

01:01:50.114 --> 01:01:57.375
And I said, how mortified would you be if I said, if we were in a training course and I said, give me your paper?

01:01:58.280 --> 01:02:00.449
I want to mark your, you'd say no.

01:02:00.449 --> 01:02:03.400
No, I'm not giving it to you because it's personal.

01:02:03.440 --> 01:02:09.619
And again, it's like, you know, the children used to give you their scores so you could plot them, right?

01:02:10.539 --> 01:02:14.690
I used to say, right, if you're comfortable to tell the whole class your score, fabulous.

01:02:14.820 --> 01:02:16.539
If you want to come up, whisper it to me.

01:02:17.335 --> 01:02:18.235
Equally fabulous.

01:02:18.364 --> 01:02:28.864
If you want to wait until the end of the lesson and then come and tell me, write it on a piece of paper and hand it to me, equally, I've known teachers to be, and we'll get on to them in a minute, to make the children call them out.

01:02:29.025 --> 01:02:40.295
How demoralizing if you score 7, or you score 5, or, you know, okay, if you're scoring 99, I get it.

01:02:40.684 --> 01:02:41.885
I really get it.

01:02:42.175 --> 01:02:44.460
But if you're scoring low, I get it.

01:02:44.840 --> 01:02:50.369
And you're expecting that child to stand up and be bold and proud in that class as I got 7 out of 100.

01:02:52.920 --> 01:02:57.050
Building that back up is extremely difficult.

01:02:57.260 --> 01:03:09.639
It's probably one of the hardest things to do if you've got a child that doesn't, who isn't, let's say, maths orientated, and they are scoring sevens each week, and they're expected to tell people.

01:03:10.409 --> 01:03:12.989
How do you then build your maths skills?

01:03:13.130 --> 01:03:15.500
We're just taking maths as a, but that's in anything.

01:03:15.510 --> 01:03:17.230
How do you build that back up?

01:03:17.380 --> 01:03:17.829
No.

01:03:18.070 --> 01:03:31.690
And once your confidence has gone, and actually it's something that I notice a lot in particularly neurodivergent children that just, you know, that I encounter encountered in my daily life that sounds weird, um, is that they are very quick to turn things back on themselves.

01:03:31.780 --> 01:03:33.280
And I'm guilty of this myself.

01:03:33.284 --> 01:03:33.789
It's not.

01:03:34.309 --> 01:03:50.300
I'd rather say it to the clothes thing, it's not the dress doesn't fit, it's my body doesn't fit the dress and that can be applied in all sorts of areas and I've heard friends of autistic children particularly sort of saying, oh, they talk about hating themselves and they're stupid and you know, I'm so stupid, I can't do it.

01:03:50.659 --> 01:03:54.989
And again, I think that it's the lack of understanding.

01:03:54.989 --> 01:03:57.840
So I'm going to use my son again as an example, but he was.

01:03:58.344 --> 01:04:01.545
being taught algebra and really, really struggling with it.

01:04:01.605 --> 01:04:04.954
And then a different teacher came in and taught him a different strategy.

01:04:05.264 --> 01:04:09.324
And it's still not his favorite thing, but that light bulb moment.

01:04:10.275 --> 01:04:18.614
And of course, what these exams do is they teach a child in a very or expect a child to test in a very, very prescriptive way.

01:04:19.065 --> 01:04:27.320
And I'm going to just contest again, the fact that you go to a meeting in year five and they say to you, Unless you tutor your child, they are unlikely to pass.

01:04:27.389 --> 01:04:27.929
Like, what?

01:04:28.539 --> 01:04:35.070
So, you're taking something that's supposed to be a great equalizer and making it only accessible to people that can pay 50 quid a week to a tutor.

01:04:35.110 --> 01:04:35.539
What?

01:04:36.255 --> 01:05:01.554
yeah, but it's like, you know, let's come back to the teachers now I now I have had the privilege to work with some amazing teachers I've also had the lots of privilege to work with two teachers that I feel should have left the profession but majority of teachers are trying their best and it comes down to a lot of things.

01:05:01.554 --> 01:05:14.155
It comes down to the amount of work that they have to do as in how they have to prove each child's progress, how they have to, you know, and when it comes down to why hasn't this one made progress?

01:05:14.175 --> 01:05:19.025
Why, you know, and there isn't the option to turn around and say, well, this child doesn't like, do you know what I mean?

01:05:19.175 --> 01:05:20.344
There isn't that option.

01:05:21.605 --> 01:05:33.150
The biggest thing for me in schools is then teachers aren't, and staff aren't allowed to turn around and say, and I don't Going around bitching in a corner about a child or whatever.

01:05:33.219 --> 01:05:37.079
I mean, truly being able to say, I am struggling.

01:05:37.360 --> 01:05:40.320
I cannot cope help me.

01:05:40.719 --> 01:05:49.480
But because the, because the around the school and the whole, we're meant to be going, Oh, well, tomorrow's another day.

01:05:49.639 --> 01:05:53.050
Or you get the bright people go, Oh, well, when they were in my class, it was fine.

01:05:53.389 --> 01:05:56.130
We don't teach teachers to be able to say, you know what?

01:05:56.190 --> 01:05:57.199
I'm really struggling.

01:05:57.519 --> 01:05:58.380
And it's not me.

01:05:58.730 --> 01:05:59.829
It's not personal.

01:06:00.414 --> 01:06:03.954
It's, I'm struggling, but it's not, they don't want to hear it.

01:06:04.184 --> 01:06:05.164
They don't want to know it.

01:06:05.175 --> 01:06:09.505
The, the, um, most SLTs don't want to hear it.

01:06:09.664 --> 01:06:13.434
They want to hear solutions and they say, oh yes, you can say what you like.

01:06:13.954 --> 01:06:26.284
But that's what does this corner thing where people start talking about children and they start saying, oh, you know, and then the teacher that's getting them the next year already has a preconceived idea of what, what's coming their way.

01:06:26.454 --> 01:06:27.934
So they've already judged that child.

01:06:27.934 --> 01:06:29.664
They've already put that child in this corner.

01:06:30.760 --> 01:06:31.489
That's our problem.

01:06:31.500 --> 01:06:34.719
We need to be able to turn around and say, I'm struggling.

01:06:35.340 --> 01:06:40.710
I'm struggling and I need proper, professional help.

01:06:40.909 --> 01:06:42.599
I mean, I did a training course, right?

01:06:43.230 --> 01:06:51.159
With, and I don't just mean the teachers, I mean the TAs, I mean the office staff, the midday meals, the ground staff.

01:06:51.230 --> 01:06:59.099
Every single person, every adult that works with children should have a certain level of understanding of additional needs.

01:06:59.340 --> 01:07:00.429
I don't care who you are.

01:07:00.639 --> 01:07:01.420
Cleaners.

01:07:01.724 --> 01:07:12.175
Everybody, because you know, you know that it, how one thing can affect your child and send it, send them down this route that we can't recover from.

01:07:12.414 --> 01:07:18.815
So that's a day wasted and we bang on about, uh, tomorrow's a different day where it's a new day.

01:07:18.855 --> 01:07:19.724
It's a fresh day.

01:07:19.985 --> 01:07:21.934
Well, if you've done a misdemeanor on a Friday.

01:07:23.190 --> 01:07:25.369
That hangs over that child till Monday, right?

01:07:26.280 --> 01:07:43.840
Because if it's late in the afternoon and the sanction is that you miss part of your playtime and you don't have a playtime till Monday, that child has to go home on a Friday night, Saturday and Sunday and have that dread of going back to school on the Monday because they know what they did on Friday is going to be effective on Monday.

01:07:44.190 --> 01:07:46.579
So how can every day be a fresh start, right?

01:07:46.900 --> 01:07:55.659
and also there is an element of consequence like if you were to behave in a really appalling way Which you know is not the the uh, what's the word I was looking for then?

01:07:55.699 --> 01:08:02.219
No, can't find it It's not the it's not just the neurotypicals that are prone to genuine bad behavior.

01:08:02.230 --> 01:08:09.460
You know, it's If you genuinely behave in a way that requires, um, consequence, then sometimes that might go into the next day.

01:08:09.860 --> 01:08:11.690
So the idea that tomorrow is a fresh day.

01:08:11.690 --> 01:08:16.869
Yes, I like in, in, in theory, but there's an element, it needs to be a bit more flexible.

01:08:17.220 --> 01:08:20.310
Um, and I'm thinking also of these teachers as well.

01:08:20.319 --> 01:08:26.680
So I know a lot of teachers and all of them are very dedicated and invested in what they do.

01:08:26.680 --> 01:08:30.210
But many of them are also losing the will because.

01:08:30.564 --> 01:08:44.055
They are, like, they're pushing that ball uphill all the time, and I'm thinking, for example, and this is a made up example, so you've got a class of 30 children, and you maybe have, I don't know, 5 children who have got additional needs.

01:08:44.505 --> 01:08:45.824
Some with, some without any HCP.

01:08:46.494 --> 01:08:57.185
Now, if you've got a child that perhaps has got some trauma, um, You know, and some behavioral difficulties as a result of this, you could have a child throwing chairs at the back of the classroom.

01:08:57.204 --> 01:09:01.414
You could have a child that needs a nappy changing in, you know, high up into primary school.

01:09:01.414 --> 01:09:02.935
This, you know, we know that this happens.

01:09:03.385 --> 01:09:06.944
You can have a child that's perhaps nonverbal, a child that's spinning around in circles.

01:09:06.994 --> 01:09:10.295
And there could in this class be a teacher and a TA, am I right?

01:09:10.640 --> 01:09:11.050
Mm hmm.

01:09:12.409 --> 01:09:12.729
Yep.

01:09:12.805 --> 01:09:21.039
how on earth are they expected to, you know, Because as much as I want to talk about the impact on the neurodivergent children, the special needs children, what about the other children?

01:09:21.039 --> 01:09:27.319
Because obviously if you've got a child that's requiring two members of staff to calm down, what are the rest of the kids doing?

01:09:27.750 --> 01:09:35.340
Because they're not, they're being cheated out of their access to education as well, which again can cause this discontent within classrooms and resentment.

01:09:35.939 --> 01:09:54.350
I am not, I'm just going to give you a quick anecdote, but it was very soon after Ben had died, um, my husband, My husband and my children's dad and Hector had bitten a little girl, not, we're not talking blood But he had bitten this little girl and the mother kind of took me to one side on the school run.

01:09:54.359 --> 01:10:00.529
Now bearing in mind My husband had died suddenly a matter of weeks before and was sort of saying to me how it's really not acceptable I'm really sorry.

01:10:00.539 --> 01:10:01.479
I've had to go to the teacher.

01:10:01.880 --> 01:10:09.100
I'm just thinking oh my god But of course had my child been bitten you would go in on the defense for them, wouldn't you?

01:10:09.100 --> 01:10:16.890
So it's a really I don't envy teachers and I, you do it for the, um, for the love, not the reward, right?

01:10:16.890 --> 01:10:17.289
Because

01:10:19.015 --> 01:10:38.885
the thing is, it's like, you know, if you, let's say you've got a typical class of 30 children, you say, um, I think it's slightly higher than, than five children in each class that are suffering from a need, whether that is an emotional support, whether that is, um, trauma based or SEN or whatever it is, there is, I think it's slightly higher.

01:10:39.189 --> 01:10:43.460
see that in itself is quite shocking because I thought I was saying five is quite a high number.

01:10:43.824 --> 01:10:46.805
I think, I think you're looking at higher.

01:10:47.335 --> 01:10:53.145
I mean, this is, this is the things that, you know, that, that go, that kind of slip out underneath the, the radar.

01:10:53.145 --> 01:11:03.444
So for instance, if you're opening the door to your children, because we have to remember, and this is my bugbear, children hit the ground running in school.

01:11:03.564 --> 01:11:09.704
Anyone who works in school knows that they hit the ground running from the minute they step through that door.

01:11:09.704 --> 01:11:12.095
So, They have things they need to do.

01:11:12.664 --> 01:11:17.755
And there is very little time for anything other than school, school, school.

01:11:17.755 --> 01:11:22.935
So they come in, let's say they come in through the door, and I'm talking, this has actually happened.

01:11:23.145 --> 01:11:29.125
So you've got four or five children, but in the, I'm talking year four, who are girls, particularly.

01:11:29.265 --> 01:11:33.875
Because girls find year four quite a challenge, because it's that whole friendship thing.

01:11:34.779 --> 01:11:42.390
You know, friends that have been friends since they were in reception and it all starts to move around a little bit, right?

01:11:42.649 --> 01:11:44.619
So there's always a little bit of angst coming in.

01:11:44.840 --> 01:11:49.029
So let's say you've got five girls walking in out of 30.

01:11:50.020 --> 01:11:53.800
Each one of those girls has a bit of an emotional issue going on.

01:11:55.560 --> 01:12:02.310
You, for me, I would try and sit with each one of those because we need to sort it before we can go into learning.

01:12:02.630 --> 01:12:10.359
If it's one of those ones they just need to be, touch base, have a couple of words, and then they're fine, send them on, they can get on with whatever they have to do.

01:12:11.289 --> 01:12:13.909
But sometimes, a little bit more time is needed.

01:12:14.760 --> 01:12:27.050
But that's a problem because interventions go on, extra reading, extra spelling, then there is, you know, early morning work, stuff they haven't finished the next day, then they have registration, then they go to a seminar.

01:12:27.520 --> 01:12:33.739
So what lots of people, adults, don't get is that these children hit the ground running.

01:12:34.335 --> 01:12:39.654
You may have a child in the lower years or even in the upper years that are struggling to leave their parent.

01:12:40.675 --> 01:12:52.550
There isn't physically the time to spend with that child to make sure that that child is emotionally, Well, enough to be able to enter that classroom.

01:12:52.800 --> 01:12:56.770
Bearing in mind their classmates or their peers will always be there if there's been an issue.

01:12:56.909 --> 01:12:58.569
They already know that there's an issue.

01:12:58.819 --> 01:13:02.380
Walking in, we all know what walking into a room late does to everybody.

01:13:02.649 --> 01:13:04.579
Causes angst for everyone.

01:13:05.270 --> 01:13:09.699
I don't care who you are, adult, child, priest, whoever.

01:13:10.000 --> 01:13:12.399
Walking into a room when you are late.

01:13:13.305 --> 01:13:14.095
is huge.

01:13:14.734 --> 01:13:16.395
But there's not the time for that.

01:13:16.904 --> 01:13:23.944
They're, children don't have that, you know, they go from that, then they go into, they come back from, let's say go assembly, come back straight into their lesson.

01:13:24.104 --> 01:13:27.755
They finish that lesson, they go to playtime, then after playtime they're in another.

01:13:27.944 --> 01:13:30.125
So there's no damn time.

01:13:30.454 --> 01:13:36.295
There's no time for an atypical child who is just experiencing a bad morning.

01:13:36.444 --> 01:13:38.064
I fell out with mum this morning.

01:13:38.395 --> 01:13:39.524
Mum was cross with me.

01:13:39.524 --> 01:13:41.345
I couldn't find my shoes this morning.

01:13:41.675 --> 01:13:44.255
Let alone, you know, I haven't brought my pet lunch

01:13:44.329 --> 01:13:45.640
Few bit in my house.

01:13:46.194 --> 01:13:46.734
But do you know what I mean?

01:13:47.125 --> 01:13:49.145
So there needs to be time.

01:13:49.185 --> 01:13:50.274
I mean, I did a training course.

01:13:51.619 --> 01:14:00.300
with um, all staff and it was, I mean, and I like, because I'm a bit of a, uh, I like to do practical things.

01:14:00.300 --> 01:14:05.149
I think people work better with practical rather than just sitting, lifting, and especially if it's at the end of the day.

01:14:05.880 --> 01:14:07.270
Been through a whole school day.

01:14:08.359 --> 01:14:09.100
Craps happened.

01:14:09.140 --> 01:14:14.930
Anyway, we did this thing and I said, right, and they kept saying to me, what's, what's, what's it on tonight?

01:14:14.949 --> 01:14:15.720
What we do?

01:14:15.789 --> 01:14:17.729
And I was like you'll find out, fine.

01:14:17.729 --> 01:14:21.869
And I was like, no, honestly, it's fine, I haven't got time to talk to you.

01:14:21.869 --> 01:14:29.345
So I had all the mats put out into the um, into the hall and I put names on Most of them.

01:14:29.805 --> 01:14:30.895
A couple of them I didn't.

01:14:31.795 --> 01:14:33.805
So then I, they all came in.

01:14:33.805 --> 01:14:34.744
I said, find your mat.

01:14:34.784 --> 01:14:36.914
And then there were a couple of standing around going, well, I haven't got a mat.

01:14:37.234 --> 01:14:38.914
And I was like, Oh, just go find one.

01:14:39.604 --> 01:14:41.954
And they were like, but I've got, just go find one.

01:14:42.734 --> 01:14:43.984
So then I said, right, take your shoes off.

01:14:44.024 --> 01:14:44.954
No, I'm not taking my shoes off.

01:14:44.954 --> 01:14:50.345
No, no, I've, I've asked you to take your shoes off and everything I did.

01:14:50.354 --> 01:14:55.015
And we did a bit of mindfulness and we did, and I made, and I made them all close my eyes.

01:14:56.340 --> 01:14:57.800
But I've asked you to close your eyes.

01:14:58.380 --> 01:15:00.899
And then, I said, right, okay, so they did that.

01:15:01.489 --> 01:15:03.560
And then I did, um, a number sequence.

01:15:03.899 --> 01:15:06.949
So we started at 2 and 5, 2, 5, and 10.

01:15:06.949 --> 01:15:11.500
7, 9 and 4 and it went up and up and up and then I said, right now you need to write it down.

01:15:12.090 --> 01:15:13.189
And they were like, I can't.

01:15:13.189 --> 01:15:14.260
I said, why can't you?

01:15:14.819 --> 01:15:19.890
And each time, after I'd done this for an hour, I said, now tell me how you feel.

01:15:20.470 --> 01:15:22.109
And they went, I'm beside myself.

01:15:22.359 --> 01:15:24.500
And I said, that's how children are.

01:15:26.845 --> 01:15:29.095
And that was just a practical thing.

01:15:29.095 --> 01:15:34.085
You know, it's like when, when they were meant to be doing, you know, we're doing a bit of mindfulness now we're going to be quiet.

01:15:34.314 --> 01:15:37.095
I was banging doors, talking to others, phones ringing.

01:15:37.335 --> 01:15:38.595
And they were like, I can't.

01:15:39.074 --> 01:15:43.015
And I was like, but that's how children feel sometimes.

01:15:43.404 --> 01:15:45.814
And if you as an adult are struggling.

01:15:46.385 --> 01:15:49.805
And then one, one of them said to me, yeah, but I've been working all day.

01:15:49.845 --> 01:15:53.385
And I went, and the difference is what?

01:15:53.685 --> 01:15:55.234
Well, I didn't sleep very well.

01:15:55.234 --> 01:15:55.255
Okay.

01:15:55.875 --> 01:15:57.435
And the difference is what?

01:15:59.524 --> 01:16:02.765
So we need to be able to relate it to children.

01:16:03.329 --> 01:16:14.789
And it's that putting yourself into their shoes and what I'm hearing is that kind of authoritarian, you know, my way or, you know, because I said so, Which, and I remember my head teacher used to say do as I say, not as I do.

01:16:14.850 --> 01:16:18.479
Cause, yeah, and it's that sort of my way or the highway.

01:16:18.510 --> 01:16:20.810
Now, I'm going to say the acronym that dare not speak it's name.

01:16:20.810 --> 01:16:25.039
PDA, which for the uninitiated is Pathological Demand Avoidance.

01:16:25.460 --> 01:16:26.399
It's pathological, isn't it?

01:16:27.010 --> 01:16:31.460
Um, it is part and parcel of neurodivergence, particularly ADHD and autism.

01:16:32.180 --> 01:16:44.979
But, it's It's, it's not really a recognised condition in that, and you kind of don't want that label ever attaching to you or your child because you won't get them into school and it says, it's like a big flashing light that says difficult.

01:16:45.600 --> 01:16:47.069
Now, I'm very aware.

01:16:47.699 --> 01:16:48.550
Yeah, yeah.

01:16:48.810 --> 01:16:52.279
And I'm very aware that I have an element of this myself.

01:16:52.319 --> 01:16:55.680
So if you were to say to if I was walking to the sink now to do the washing up.

01:16:56.100 --> 01:16:57.840
And you said, Oh, Rosie, would you do the washing up?

01:16:58.460 --> 01:17:02.869
No, because so this approach that is so.

01:17:03.979 --> 01:17:04.460
I can.

01:17:04.520 --> 01:17:08.840
I see, and I've been aware of this be way before I knew about my own neurodivergence.

01:17:10.130 --> 01:17:13.729
must be aware that this approach doesn't work for children, or certainly not all children.

01:17:13.729 --> 01:17:21.529
There will be some, but then the ones that fall into line and behave, little robots, are they happy or are they, you know, are they them?

01:17:21.529 --> 01:17:22.909
Are they masking themselves?

01:17:24.079 --> 01:17:25.385
It's, yeah.

01:17:25.670 --> 01:17:29.140
mean my husband, Stuart, he says it to me all the time.

01:17:29.609 --> 01:17:32.920
Everything he says to me, he said, the first word that leaves your mouth is no.

01:17:33.640 --> 01:17:36.439
Yeah.

01:17:36.520 --> 01:17:37.310
yeah, you're right.

01:17:37.670 --> 01:17:39.270
Because it is.

01:17:39.270 --> 01:17:44.140
It's like, I always say to to adults, when you get the people pleasers, right?

01:17:44.939 --> 01:17:49.739
Which children fall into, which are the ones we're saying that go along with everything.

01:17:49.800 --> 01:17:51.199
And it's always yes.

01:17:51.399 --> 01:17:52.989
And people are like, I really can't do it.

01:17:53.500 --> 01:17:55.050
You need to give yourself a minute.

01:17:55.489 --> 01:17:57.390
You need to change your dialogue.

01:17:57.439 --> 01:18:01.220
You need to turn around and go, if somebody asks you, can I get back to you on that one?

01:18:01.399 --> 01:18:06.130
Or, you know, um, when somebody says to you, well, I need you to do this.

01:18:06.130 --> 01:18:07.649
Well, I've just got to do this first.

01:18:08.579 --> 01:18:12.600
Giving yourself 30 seconds to be able to think, can or can I not do it?

01:18:13.390 --> 01:18:14.810
It's the same with children.

01:18:15.020 --> 01:18:38.199
It's like, you know, I was, I was told once, I had a training course, and I'll mention no names, Um, from a very, I was working for KCC at the time, and a very high up person in KCC came in to give us a training, you know, about how, A, how to talk, have difficult conversations with parents, and also how to, um, talk to children.

01:18:39.069 --> 01:18:40.590
And I was like, you know, here we go.

01:18:41.039 --> 01:18:47.529
And he said to me, we did, we did role play and a bit of that, and he said to me, Criticism Juliana, um, constructive.

01:18:47.529 --> 01:18:53.215
And And I don't do well, I've got to be honest, and I don't think many people do do well.

01:18:53.925 --> 01:18:58.204
And he said, you are, you say the word please too much.

01:19:00.164 --> 01:19:02.805
And I said, okay, okay.

01:19:03.034 --> 01:19:11.510
Then he said, well, because when you're, when you're, you're talking to a child and you use the word ask too much.

01:19:11.970 --> 01:19:20.539
And I thought, here we go, I can hear my teachers in school saying to me, she, Julianne, Julianne would be a great student if she didn't talk so much, and she was able to sit on her chair.

01:19:21.489 --> 01:19:27.399
So I said, well, what, because I say to a child, I'm really, I'm asking you, could you do this for me?

01:19:27.760 --> 01:19:28.329
Thank you.

01:19:28.489 --> 01:19:29.569
Could you do this please?

01:19:29.600 --> 01:19:34.300
Or, I would like, and he went, oh yes, because that's, that gives them a way out.

01:19:37.010 --> 01:19:39.720
Or does it give them autonomy over their own actions,

01:19:39.795 --> 01:19:47.704
And I was like, okay, so I, so we, so I thought, okay, so I went away and was, you know, gritty tooth, you know, jawline.

01:19:48.104 --> 01:19:54.185
And then as we were leaving, we had to get our, um, our thing signed to say that we attended the course.

01:19:54.814 --> 01:19:55.854
And I went, sign it.

01:19:56.965 --> 01:19:57.935
He went, I'm sorry.

01:19:58.574 --> 01:19:59.534
I said, sign it.

01:20:00.664 --> 01:20:05.414
I said, but I'm not saying please, and I'm not asking you, and I'm not giving you a way out.

01:20:05.574 --> 01:20:06.744
You need to sign it.

01:20:06.744 --> 01:20:09.635
You've just told me that's what I should do, but you don't like it.

01:20:10.234 --> 01:20:15.765
So, I think it is about understanding what we say.

01:20:16.694 --> 01:20:24.015
And the other thing is being big enough to say to a child, Do you know I'm sorry, that didn't come out right.

01:20:25.569 --> 01:20:25.920
Yeah.

01:20:26.185 --> 01:20:42.095
I'm sorry, I, you know, I didn't, I'm not, I had a bit of a, bit of an issue before I apologize because I can, you know, it doesn't matter where your child is, spectrum or non spectrum or whatever, but if you say to a child, Do you know what?

01:20:43.274 --> 01:20:43.954
I'm sorry.

01:20:44.675 --> 01:20:51.345
I mean, and it's, and it's the other thing of giving children the opportunity to call you out when you get something wrong.

01:20:51.914 --> 01:20:53.585
And we're not talking rudeness.

01:20:53.614 --> 01:20:56.574
We're talking, you know, what, did you make a spelling mistake?

01:20:57.024 --> 01:20:58.234
And then, you know, Mrs.

01:20:58.244 --> 01:20:59.925
Dick, oh, thanks for that.

01:21:00.484 --> 01:21:02.225
Because we all make mistakes.

01:21:02.345 --> 01:21:08.305
And if they see that you make the mistake, they're more likely to be able to accept it.

01:21:09.354 --> 01:21:12.225
But it's also that whole thing, if they do you.

01:21:12.670 --> 01:21:16.590
You know, we talk about the anxiety curve, which is another bugbear I have.

01:21:16.949 --> 01:21:35.015
You know, when a child gets to that anxiety, gets to the top of that curve, and the explosive behaviour, whether it's throwing chairs, whether it's verbal, whether it's hitting And we get to the top of that curve and they go, we're coming down the other side.

01:21:35.545 --> 01:21:37.875
And then somebody will walk in and go, they're perfectly fine.

01:21:38.875 --> 01:21:40.024
Put them back into the same.

01:21:40.534 --> 01:21:44.664
To come down from that level of anxiety takes a lot longer.

01:21:45.140 --> 01:21:48.119
Then 5, 10, 15 minutes.

01:21:48.359 --> 01:21:53.000
It takes a lot longer to recover from that kind of anxiety.

01:21:53.170 --> 01:21:57.510
Apart from the fact that your brain has switched off anyway, and it's your primitive brain that's

01:21:57.600 --> 01:21:57.960
Lizard

01:21:58.020 --> 01:21:58.050
over.

01:21:59.210 --> 01:22:04.399
So, to reconnect, we have to start thinking, how would it be for us?

01:22:05.835 --> 01:22:07.604
How would we feel as adults?

01:22:07.935 --> 01:22:08.875
We've all been there.

01:22:09.194 --> 01:22:10.265
All of us have been there.

01:22:10.335 --> 01:22:19.494
We still go through it, but we don't allow children the same level of understanding because they're not at work.

01:22:19.800 --> 01:22:23.020
We seem to expect much more from them, even though they're so young.

01:22:23.020 --> 01:22:31.125
And hearing you say this on my birthday, um, I wake up and I had, I guess, a meltdown.

01:22:31.194 --> 01:22:36.364
Um, and everything was slightly wrong, so I stormed out of the house, went off to Maidstone.

01:22:36.404 --> 01:22:37.015
Do not recommend.

01:22:37.425 --> 01:22:40.704
Um, and when I came back, I wasn't expecting my parents to be in the house.

01:22:40.975 --> 01:22:41.664
And they were.

01:22:42.484 --> 01:22:45.975
Now, I was, I'd started to come down from this, um, what's it called?

01:22:46.064 --> 01:22:46.564
The Ark.

01:22:46.564 --> 01:22:48.319
The top of the Ark.

01:22:48.630 --> 01:22:50.939
Yeah, so I'm starting to come back down again.

01:22:50.960 --> 01:22:54.079
I've made myself have a heel and cause I thought, Oh, maybe I haven't eaten today.

01:22:54.079 --> 01:22:55.550
Maybe this could be impacting my mood.

01:22:56.340 --> 01:22:58.640
And then I walked in and I just, it escalated again.

01:22:58.640 --> 01:23:01.460
And I'm like, I'm just gonna get a bottle of wine.

01:23:01.460 --> 01:23:14.989
What's the point of being so, you know, and just, I'm, again, I'm, it's like an out of body experience and it resulted in me then kind of sitting on the floor and crying and my husband having to hold me and my mum and dad are taking the kids out at this point.

01:23:15.699 --> 01:23:16.699
So then he pours me a bath.

01:23:16.739 --> 01:23:17.614
I have a bath.

01:23:18.675 --> 01:23:21.375
I get ready and I'm like, okay, I feel good now.

01:23:21.425 --> 01:23:21.774
Okay.

01:23:21.774 --> 01:23:22.225
It's gone.

01:23:22.265 --> 01:23:22.755
I dealt with it.

01:23:22.755 --> 01:23:23.774
It's it's burnt through.

01:23:24.375 --> 01:23:29.324
But that feeling of walking back down the stairs to face my family is horrible.

01:23:29.534 --> 01:23:33.475
And you feel, and I have to, and I say, I'm really sorry.

01:23:33.475 --> 01:23:34.664
I shouldn't have behaved like this.

01:23:34.685 --> 01:23:36.755
You know, this was a, uh, a kind of.

01:23:37.015 --> 01:23:38.385
bubbling up of emotions.

01:23:38.425 --> 01:23:45.744
And I didn't mean that, you know, and you have to sort of apologize and make amends a bit, but for a child, that's so intimidating, isn't it?

01:23:45.784 --> 01:23:53.074
Especially as, and I'm just digressing back to, I'm thinking when you said about, uh, like the lunchtime staff requiring a bit of support.

01:23:53.125 --> 01:24:01.354
So early on in Tabby's reception year, um, the dinner, uh, dinner, ladies, she'd said to Tabby, um, would you like your food cutting up?

01:24:01.909 --> 01:24:03.750
Tabby had said no, and she cut her feet up.

01:24:04.420 --> 01:24:22.460
So Tabby has then been, she's ended up on screen, I've had a very, they've got a very, very simple, lovely, um, uh, parent liaison, so she, she didn't ring me, you know, oh your child's done this, it was much more sympathetic, but, she, the result was that she stood in the dining room, full of, the whole school, this tiny little dot, and told, you know, I hate you, I hate this whole school.

01:24:22.460 --> 01:24:25.510
But, rationally, would she do that?

01:24:25.569 --> 01:24:27.210
Of course not.

01:24:27.279 --> 01:24:37.574
But that lizard brain, that, that gets triggered, and, For them, for a little, a child to then have to walk back into that environment and say sorry is, is really, really tough.

01:24:38.145 --> 01:24:43.895
Um, and it's that coming back down, and you're right, the expectation that they'll just carry on as normal once they've calmed down.

01:24:44.604 --> 01:24:47.555
It's, they, it sometimes takes a little bit more.

01:24:47.555 --> 01:24:55.814
I have to say, my daughter's school is very good and she was taken off by this lovely member of staff and given a snack and allowed to process those feelings.

01:24:56.395 --> 01:24:56.675
But.

01:24:57.375 --> 01:24:59.784
How much of that equity was given because of how little she was?

01:24:59.835 --> 01:25:07.484
You know, I'm just thinking of these children in the school, you know, having these meltdowns and then having to go and apologize or go to the head teacher's office.

01:25:07.484 --> 01:25:13.484
And I don't know what the solution is, but it still feels like nothing has changed since we were at school.

01:25:14.640 --> 01:25:19.420
No, I mean, so a child, um, we were talking about, you know, children.

01:25:19.720 --> 01:25:20.739
I wasn't, I wasn't working.

01:25:20.739 --> 01:25:23.770
I'd left, I'd left the school and I'd go, gone back for a visit.

01:25:24.710 --> 01:25:30.560
And the child that I had worked with for, um, a year was having a, um, a meltdown.

01:25:31.680 --> 01:25:36.020
And he was in a room and he was trashing the room.

01:25:36.595 --> 01:25:38.069
So I said, do you want me to go in?

01:25:38.130 --> 01:25:38.579
I'll go in.

01:25:38.579 --> 01:25:39.329
I've not got a problem with it.

01:25:39.329 --> 01:25:39.869
I can go in.

01:25:39.869 --> 01:25:42.600
So I went in and I was talking to him and he, and the issue was.

01:25:43.170 --> 01:25:55.130
He had sworn at the teacher and that is a no no and it was the f word and He had told he was told he couldn't have gets to miss some of his playtime.

01:25:55.140 --> 01:25:57.909
Well, that then led to this huge thing.

01:25:59.119 --> 01:26:01.029
And he was, and he was, I want my playtime.

01:26:01.279 --> 01:26:02.260
And he was year five.

01:26:02.380 --> 01:26:07.739
And, and so we would expect, but he was working way below his, um, his age range.

01:26:08.220 --> 01:26:15.170
Anyway, the whole long and short of it was every time he calmed down, he would say, but I want my playtime.

01:26:15.170 --> 01:26:16.220
Well, time had ticked on.

01:26:16.600 --> 01:26:17.680
Playtime had finished.

01:26:17.890 --> 01:26:26.114
This had been going on for an hour, but every time we, you know, he would say, calm down and the rest of it.

01:26:26.385 --> 01:26:27.864
And then you go, I want to go to play.

01:26:28.125 --> 01:26:32.954
And then I would say, I understand, but the time has moved on now.

01:26:33.734 --> 01:26:34.944
And it would start again.

01:26:35.154 --> 01:26:39.904
And this happened four or five times until it eventually petered out.

01:26:40.305 --> 01:26:48.135
It didn't have anything to do with, he'd suddenly realized that he couldn't have the playtime because time has finished.

01:26:48.854 --> 01:26:52.814
It was to do with exhaustion for one, that the brain had suddenly gone.

01:26:52.854 --> 01:26:54.234
I can't keep doing this.

01:26:54.595 --> 01:26:58.875
because I am, everything is exhausted, the adrenaline had stopped.

01:27:00.055 --> 01:27:02.625
I have a theory and I've always used it.

01:27:02.744 --> 01:27:05.604
At that point, we then helped to tidy up.

01:27:06.664 --> 01:27:09.755
So we sat down together and we helped to tidy up.

01:27:09.935 --> 01:27:16.154
But while we're doing this, I'm talking to him about what happened.

01:27:16.774 --> 01:27:23.675
Because he didn't just go from swearing at the teacher, to missing his playtime, to having this.

01:27:23.725 --> 01:27:24.805
And it was huge.

01:27:24.835 --> 01:27:25.604
I mean, it was huge.

01:27:26.734 --> 01:27:46.210
Something happened before and it was because his dad was unwell and he'd come into school with this and it was quite a serious thing and he had been brewing the whole day but because School life is so busy.

01:27:46.210 --> 01:27:47.949
Like I say, they hit the ground running.

01:27:48.270 --> 01:27:51.829
Nobody had realized he'd done no work.

01:27:52.439 --> 01:27:54.010
He had produced nothing.

01:27:54.130 --> 01:27:56.289
He had sat there and done nothing.

01:27:56.619 --> 01:28:05.689
And then when he was called out is when he, so that all these little markers, so the anxiety was going up and up and up until it reached that top of that curve.

01:28:06.715 --> 01:28:07.954
Where else is it to go?

01:28:08.295 --> 01:28:08.654
Yeah.

01:28:09.534 --> 01:28:09.675
And

01:28:09.845 --> 01:28:18.185
When, when he then turned around and said, just for instance, the time, maybe there had been five minutes left of play, and I'd have said, oh okay, then let's go out to play.

01:28:18.484 --> 01:28:22.484
I guarantee there would have been an incident in the playtime, in the playground,

01:28:22.614 --> 01:28:23.854
he needed somewhere to go.

01:28:24.345 --> 01:28:24.484
there.

01:28:25.475 --> 01:28:25.774
Yeah.

01:28:26.654 --> 01:28:29.045
But it's about staff, and all staff.

01:28:30.449 --> 01:28:39.840
Not just teaching staff, TAs, it has to be all adults that work within a school understanding those sorts of things.

01:28:40.069 --> 01:28:48.310
That when a child is looking you in the face and you know they have just been fighting with another child, it is not over.

01:28:49.350 --> 01:28:55.439
And to re put them back into, let's say, main population, what do we expect?

01:28:55.729 --> 01:29:32.140
Yeah, and actually, when you said then that that little boy's dad was, was sick, I'm just thinking now, you know, of the irrational behavior I displayed when my husband died and, or my dad was sick last year, and now I was not in my right mind at times because I, I would, and if you'd sat me down and asked me to do, you know, schoolwork or I wouldn't have been able to do it, you know, when I've had, um, difficulties myself, I've, I've, I've cancelled interviews or I've cancelled appointments, but children are expected to take whatever's been going on in their private life, um, and then, but then still continue as normal.

01:29:32.520 --> 01:29:43.729
And I'm guessing that a lot of this is to do with parent teacher communication, um, letting them know, and again, again, back to my own experience, but it was the anniversary of Ben's death last Tuesday.

01:29:43.869 --> 01:30:05.774
And, um, Hector, I, I won't bore you with all the details, but we were meant to go over the Isle of Wight to see Ben's mum, and as it happened, weather, Um, uh, uh, canceled play, but Hector then chose to go in on the Wednesday, even though he was expecting to have the day off because we were meant to be on the Isle of Wight, which I was incredibly proud of because Hector was the child that would require three teachers to drag him into school.

01:30:05.774 --> 01:30:07.744
You know, I didn't know any better back then.

01:30:08.225 --> 01:30:13.460
And, um, I don't know the, the chap that rang, but Hector said he was about 17.

01:30:13.460 --> 01:30:20.829
So I'm assuming a trainee or work experience, but he rang me to tell, you know, Hector's behavior today.

01:30:20.829 --> 01:30:22.630
And I'm thinking, Oh, bloody hell, what's he done?

01:30:22.630 --> 01:30:24.010
You know, has he broken a window?

01:30:24.010 --> 01:30:24.750
What's happened?

01:30:25.079 --> 01:30:31.600
And he told him to shut up and then had been sort of, and it was, to me, it felt like something and nothing.

01:30:31.630 --> 01:30:35.064
And I was saying to this member of staff, but what happened to lead up to it?

01:30:36.055 --> 01:30:40.284
Because I know my son, and he's unlikely to just go up to an adult and say shut up.

01:30:40.725 --> 01:30:57.175
And it's taking, but I do think often, um, and I don't, I, again, I, I think most teachers are amazing, but I think some people going into this profession, or perhaps have been in the profession a long time, this authoritarian approach of you will respect me, means that they, instead of taking the, they're taking it at very face value.

01:30:57.364 --> 01:30:58.064
Hector was rude.

01:30:58.604 --> 01:31:04.875
Well, yeah, yeah, I, it's not a I condone telling people to, you know, To swearing or telling them to shut up.

01:31:04.885 --> 01:31:07.984
But what, it must have every, uh, what is it?

01:31:07.994 --> 01:31:09.494
Every action has a cause.

01:31:09.515 --> 01:31:11.354
It's, every behavior has a cause.

01:31:11.984 --> 01:31:13.564
It will be, come from something.

01:31:14.515 --> 01:31:15.034
Yeah.

01:31:15.109 --> 01:31:16.420
behavior is communication.

01:31:17.270 --> 01:31:21.199
So, it's the personal aspect.

01:31:21.390 --> 01:31:23.100
People take it personally.

01:31:23.225 --> 01:31:23.694
Mm hmm.

01:31:24.140 --> 01:31:24.909
That's the biggest thing.

01:31:24.909 --> 01:31:34.265
When I, when I would employ somebody, I'd be at, let's say, you know, TAs, And I say to them, how, how personal would you take it?

01:31:34.774 --> 01:31:38.244
I get, you might not expect that from your children.

01:31:38.465 --> 01:31:42.914
The amount of times I've had, well I don't come to school to be spoken to like that.

01:31:42.925 --> 01:31:45.864
My children wouldn't speak to me like that.

01:31:45.864 --> 01:31:48.375
And my answer would be, but they're not your children.

01:31:50.185 --> 01:31:52.595
You don't know their life.

01:31:52.935 --> 01:31:58.284
You need to, if you come to me and say to me, so and so was rude, Hector was rude to me.

01:31:58.345 --> 01:31:59.944
He told me to shut up.

01:32:00.265 --> 01:32:04.215
I would, my, my first question was sit down, tell me what happened.

01:32:04.454 --> 01:32:05.725
Tell me about the situation.

01:32:06.055 --> 01:32:08.164
And then I would say, do you know what?

01:32:08.345 --> 01:32:12.524
I'm just going to have a chat with Hector because something must be wrong.

01:32:13.024 --> 01:32:29.010
There must be a reason behind what, you know, I mean, If he doesn't tell everybody to shut up every five minutes, which there are some children who have ASC, who literally, I mean, I've had a child say to me, Mrs.

01:32:29.010 --> 01:32:31.390
Nicol, can I just say you talk too much,

01:32:31.489 --> 01:32:31.989
Oh God.

01:32:32.020 --> 01:32:33.520
I mean, Hector might say that to you.

01:32:33.760 --> 01:32:43.840
you, and I used to say, apologies for that, I'll try and stop, but it's something that I do, but if I do it again, just let me know, but they wouldn't be being rude, it would just be,

01:32:44.840 --> 01:32:47.449
It's like I will smell Hector's armpits and say, Dude, you stink.

01:32:47.449 --> 01:32:48.270
You need to have a wash.

01:32:48.310 --> 01:32:53.970
Because if I skirt around the issue and say, Oh darling, you know, we need to wash our bodies for the, That's too much information.

01:32:54.000 --> 01:32:56.100
He just needs that basic, you stink, have a wash.

01:32:56.189 --> 01:32:59.210
And it's, and to some people that would be rude.

01:32:59.569 --> 01:33:02.739
But in our family, that works as a direct communication.

01:33:02.789 --> 01:33:05.279
And I'm not saying, you know, I wouldn't say it to the 14 year old.

01:33:05.310 --> 01:33:05.970
That wouldn't go well.

01:33:05.970 --> 01:33:14.449
But it's at his age and his kind of emotional level, That he needs that clarity of, if you don't wash you're gonna stink, so off you go.

01:33:15.470 --> 01:33:27.500
but the thing is that thing is it's about most children more than two step instructions and it's like Over the head and I get that, you know, it's it I mean

01:33:27.770 --> 01:33:28.739
I have to write everything down.

01:33:29.689 --> 01:33:42.550
Me myself there are days that I think don't give me any more than two step because I'm done then but It's the personal aspect and people need to realize that this is not all about about you.

01:33:43.779 --> 01:33:46.529
They're not going, do you know what, I'm going to find Mrs.

01:33:46.529 --> 01:33:50.800
Nickel today and I'm going to be really horrible to her because that's what I'm going to do.

01:33:51.189 --> 01:33:53.149
There's not that much thought goes into it.

01:33:53.869 --> 01:34:00.750
So that's why I think all staff, anyone who works with children, whether you work in the office, because that's just as bad.

01:34:03.215 --> 01:34:06.574
understanding that these children have difficulties.

01:34:06.765 --> 01:34:18.975
And it's like, you know, premise manager, because I know that when you've got a child who's, who's stomping, let's say stomping around the school, because we both know that when that brain starts kicking in, it is literally fight or flight, right?

01:34:19.395 --> 01:34:25.454
So you never bar the door or most, well, I don't know any school site that isn't, um, secure.

01:34:25.454 --> 01:34:29.725
So basically if they need to get out, they need to get out and it's probably a good thing.

01:34:30.310 --> 01:34:36.369
But I've had it where you've what you're wandering around and good hearted people, and they're not doing it to be mean.

01:34:36.680 --> 01:34:44.060
And you've just got to that level where you're doing a bit, you're doing the shadowing because they're stomping off and shouting and whatever, whatever.

01:34:44.380 --> 01:34:50.029
And we've just got to that point where they've slowed down and you've caught up and they're about to be able to engage with you.

01:34:50.250 --> 01:34:52.409
And someone turns around and go, how are you?

01:34:52.409 --> 01:34:56.529
And you say, no, we've got to start again.

01:34:56.539 --> 01:35:00.279
That again, is that whole thing.

01:35:00.930 --> 01:35:06.880
You know, understanding that this is a diff If, if it looks difficult, it is difficult, right?

01:35:07.500 --> 01:35:14.289
You know, it, it, I always struggle with, um, There was a guy who was a, who was a premises manager.

01:35:14.369 --> 01:35:15.090
Lovely man.

01:35:15.579 --> 01:35:17.069
Lazy, but very nice.

01:35:17.100 --> 01:35:18.229
Really liked the children.

01:35:18.720 --> 01:35:21.289
And we had one child who used to, like, stand on the top of the sheds.

01:35:23.260 --> 01:35:29.125
Well, of course, we, we used to just stand at the bottom and ask him to come down, but, but, but, but.

01:35:29.765 --> 01:35:38.265
He would come down when he was ready, and he was year six, and he would come across this, this premise manager, and he would stop and engage.

01:35:38.755 --> 01:35:42.614
And we had got the child to be, it was, it was the same thing all the time.

01:35:42.744 --> 01:35:47.345
He'd be standing, then we'd talk him down to sitting, and then eventually he would jump down.

01:35:48.164 --> 01:35:53.395
Well, he'd be sitting, this, this man would come along and engage with him, and then we'd be standing again.

01:35:53.564 --> 01:35:56.744
So then you add another hour to get him back to the place.

01:35:57.435 --> 01:35:59.614
It's understanding what you're looking at.

01:36:00.329 --> 01:36:05.880
And interesting you say that because this, um, a member of staff at my son's school, he did block the exit point.

01:36:05.880 --> 01:36:06.029
Mm hmm.

01:36:06.699 --> 01:36:12.979
Because Hector's then had his lunch and he blocked the, and so when they rang me, I was like, actually, I'm going to, I've heard your side.

01:36:12.979 --> 01:36:24.090
I'm going to talk to Hector now and I will come back to you because, and, and then as it happened, I got an email from another member of staff sort of saying it was all fine, but I just thought surely that is.

01:36:24.420 --> 01:36:28.470
You know, especially in a specialist school, like 101, do not block your exit points.

01:36:28.989 --> 01:36:45.420
I know myself, um, as an autistic adult, I need to know if I'm, if I'm somewhere new or I'm doing something different, I need to know where the exit point is because it's that caged animal feeling that, I mean, Hector, I, I, Apologies, Hector, if you're listening to this and you're 30.

01:36:45.420 --> 01:36:53.229
But he would sit under, um, tables and things and, and that caged animal metaphor is, is so visual for me with him.

01:36:53.260 --> 01:36:55.510
And, and I relate to that feeling so much.

01:36:56.109 --> 01:37:01.449
So you're, it's thinking things through, like you might think you're keeping the child safe by blocking the exit point, but you're right.

01:37:01.460 --> 01:37:03.510
Schools have got, you can't get out, can you?

01:37:03.899 --> 01:37:11.840
So actually letting them feel that they've got that bit of freedom is probably going to defuse the situation much faster.

01:37:12.744 --> 01:37:15.765
De escalation is the big thing.

01:37:15.965 --> 01:37:17.704
You need, you need the skills.

01:37:17.704 --> 01:37:23.395
You need to be able to, training on de escalation is, for me, one of the biggest thing.

01:37:24.034 --> 01:37:29.204
But going back to, to blocking exits and, or getting too close.

01:37:31.185 --> 01:37:37.875
A child will lash out when they are caught in, in that fight, flight, freeze scenario.

01:37:38.885 --> 01:37:42.704
And there comes a point where you have to, after the fact, analyze.

01:37:43.850 --> 01:37:45.560
and reflect on what you've done.

01:37:45.630 --> 01:38:00.109
I do every time, every time I've ever been hit or been in the line with anything, I've reflected on my, my practice because where did I place myself that that was going to happen to me?

01:38:00.119 --> 01:38:01.300
Sometimes it doesn't.

01:38:01.520 --> 01:38:12.270
Sometimes you can be targeted, but on the whole, I would say the majority of children, if they are that anxious, they are at that top of that curve that this behavior, the challenge behaviors come about.

01:38:12.984 --> 01:38:20.755
unless they are really about to endanger themselves or others, never block an exit because they should be.

01:38:20.854 --> 01:38:27.845
Maybe all they need is to run around the playground to let it off, but we need to know why we're doing it.

01:38:28.960 --> 01:38:29.130
When

01:38:29.145 --> 01:38:37.145
to understand that there is a point where there's nothing you can do verbally, physically, there is nothing.

01:38:37.284 --> 01:38:39.494
We have to just play the game.

01:38:40.460 --> 01:38:45.449
I've actually referred to it as, and I don't know if this is a terribly politically correct term, but I would say it's like the exorcism.

01:38:46.100 --> 01:38:53.539
You just have to, I cannot reach, and this is, you know, Hector doesn't really have so many kind of meltdowns now, but I used to just, but I can't reach him in this moment.

01:38:53.779 --> 01:39:02.409
Whatever I try, if I try and discipline him, calm him, talk to him, the only thing I used to do is tickle his back, which I still do sometimes, that sort of, I call it trout tickling.

01:39:03.079 --> 01:39:08.800
But I was, I spent some time in a, um, in a unit as a psychiatric unit as a teenager.

01:39:09.170 --> 01:39:13.989
Um, again, undiagnosed, so presented, um, as challenging.

01:39:14.060 --> 01:39:22.265
And, um, we had a group therapy session and the leader of the group wanted to address my bulimic, um, my bulimia.

01:39:23.095 --> 01:39:29.654
And his way of doing this was to publicly describe my mother having to go and empty packets, uh, show the doctor how many empty packets.

01:39:29.914 --> 01:39:36.125
Now the humiliation, because you'll be aware and many other people with bulimia is that it carries a huge stigma and a lot of shame.

01:39:36.755 --> 01:39:42.475
And I was so ashamed and so put on the spot and so humiliated.

01:39:43.164 --> 01:39:44.715
And I went to the door and they blocked it.

01:39:45.515 --> 01:39:46.484
They blocked the door.

01:39:47.145 --> 01:39:54.564
Now, there was another, um, young adult in the, in the unit at the time, and he said, his name was, let's just come back to me, isn't that weird?

01:39:55.034 --> 01:39:58.395
And he pulled the guy's chair out of the way, so that I could exit the room.

01:39:59.015 --> 01:40:07.095
Now, that to me, it makes me feel like a weird sort of warm glow, because of how somebody did see me in distress and help me.

01:40:07.505 --> 01:40:18.069
But also, um, yes, neurodiversity, especially in women and girls, was very, very undiagnosed back then, but That was a, that was a psychiatric clinic designed to help people and they blocked my exit.

01:40:18.550 --> 01:40:25.689
And like, and actually, I, I'm really kind of opening up about my own mental health here, but I, I did present at, um, Maidstone Hospital in distress.

01:40:26.479 --> 01:40:29.260
Well, I rang the doctors and they said you need to go to, uh, A& E.

01:40:30.244 --> 01:40:31.895
Which is pretty humiliating, right?

01:40:31.925 --> 01:40:44.625
You know, um, and I was left waiting in a corridor for hours and hours and hours, and when we said, look, we're gonna go home, like, I've calmed down now, um, I was told that if I left the premises, the police would be called and the security guard blocked my exit.

01:40:45.854 --> 01:40:56.055
I mean, I probably don't need to tell you how that ended, but it involved me swearing and lying on the floor, because, which is how you'd expect an autistic child to present in that situation.

01:40:56.095 --> 01:40:56.265
And.

01:40:57.109 --> 01:41:24.890
So, I suppose the more, I guess, by talking about this as an adult, I'm hoping to spread awareness of the damage that these things do, and I get, yeah, yeah, because if you don't feel you've got an exit, you don't feel you've got a voice, or a choice, or, ooh, that rhymed, and that is, you already feel, you know, this idea of having, not having a manual, well, that's how these kids feel, they feel that they've, that they're growing up in a world that is almost in a foreign language to them, and you either learn to mimic a mask.

01:41:26.060 --> 01:41:34.020
Or you become a bit of an outsider from this world and I suppose what i'm hoping to do by talking about it is create a bit more kindness and empathy, you know You're right.

01:41:34.020 --> 01:41:38.229
Look at why they did that, you know, why did hector bite a little girl the week after his dad died?

01:41:38.300 --> 01:41:39.159
What do you think?

01:41:39.760 --> 01:41:46.970
You know because he had so many feelings that he couldn't articulate And she was probably annoying him not condoning physical violence.

01:41:46.970 --> 01:41:51.090
But you know, it's it's why you're not the action almost

01:41:51.484 --> 01:41:56.635
But, but it, you know, that experience that you had, and I'm sorry for that.

01:41:56.864 --> 01:42:01.645
That, for me, we, we should know better.

01:42:02.204 --> 01:42:03.215
We should know better.

01:42:03.545 --> 01:42:11.045
And I think if you put anybody in a room, and I, and you know, again, the whole thing with the training calls.

01:42:11.654 --> 01:42:14.074
For me, I have to make it practical.

01:42:14.354 --> 01:42:17.104
I have to make them feel, many, many staff walked out.

01:42:17.104 --> 01:42:19.574
I have to And I said, but why did you walk out?

01:42:20.074 --> 01:42:21.314
Because I didn't like it.

01:42:21.755 --> 01:42:24.095
But children don't have that option.

01:42:24.465 --> 01:42:28.824
But if I had said to you, you have got to stay or you'll lose your job.

01:42:29.250 --> 01:42:31.840
You would have lost it with me.

01:42:32.390 --> 01:42:36.250
Telling me how I was bullying you, I was this, I was that.

01:42:36.250 --> 01:42:39.779
I said, so you need to be able to relate these things.

01:42:39.899 --> 01:42:45.039
Because we, you know, I've, in all honesty, I've had the first panic attack I've ever had.

01:42:46.140 --> 01:42:53.340
We were moving house and I, um, things had not gone well and it was a Friday afternoon and I had a panic attack.

01:42:53.380 --> 01:42:54.449
I've never had one before.

01:42:55.609 --> 01:43:12.659
And after it had subsided and it had gone, I had a newfound respect because A, I could talk the talk, but I'd never really, I'd had the anxiety and all the rest of it, but a full blown panic attack.

01:43:12.779 --> 01:43:14.470
I thought I was going to die.

01:43:14.604 --> 01:43:14.944
Yeah.

01:43:15.989 --> 01:43:19.380
And for me, that is where I want to take people.

01:43:19.380 --> 01:43:20.659
Not, you

01:43:20.755 --> 01:43:21.545
Not literally, but

01:43:21.970 --> 01:43:33.680
And I want them to experience exactly those emotions and those feelings and not, and being out of control and feeling like I'm being done to, I'm the done to person.

01:43:33.819 --> 01:43:40.289
This is out of my control and everything's going to go wrong and I'm going to, and I was, had lost it, completely lost it.

01:43:40.680 --> 01:43:44.520
And I thought afterwards, and I said to my husband Stuart, I've got a new found respect.

01:43:46.925 --> 01:43:52.475
But it, but it took me a long time to get over that fear that it would happen again.

01:43:52.715 --> 01:43:55.585
Oh, you could be relaying my experience of a panic attack.

01:43:55.645 --> 01:44:11.949
I had my first panic attack only a couple of years ago, and we'd gone to a local restaurant for dinner, and, um, I not long stopped drinking and I'd accidentally booked as a tasting menu with wine and it just, it that, and I was sitting on the, you know, the banquet.

01:44:11.949 --> 01:44:22.510
We, we were sort of sitting in rows and I just felt this kind of heat and this, oh, I thought, I thought I was, I, I dunno what I thought was going on, but I went, I managed to get my to and I'm, it's like I was really drunk.

01:44:22.600 --> 01:44:22.930
Really?

01:44:22.930 --> 01:44:23.680
That's how it felt.

01:44:23.680 --> 01:44:25.060
And I was sort of ricocheting.

01:44:25.510 --> 01:44:27.399
I'm thinking my, I've been spiked.

01:44:27.404 --> 01:44:28.510
What's happened to me?

01:44:28.989 --> 01:44:33.279
And it was, I managed to get myself home and sort of send my husband a text saying I'm, I'm at home.

01:44:33.689 --> 01:44:38.300
And I came out to, actually, where I am now, into the annex, because I didn't want the kids to see me like it.

01:44:38.300 --> 01:44:47.399
And it was only as he came in and he saw I was going, it's a panic attack, you're having a panic attack, it, the power went, because I knew what it was, and it gradually subsided.

01:44:47.430 --> 01:44:49.430
But I became almost a recluse.

01:44:49.649 --> 01:44:59.569
Now, I went from being really social, and not wanting to go out, because I was so embarrassed, and I thought, what if I'd fallen, you know, what if, and also, what do people think of me?

01:45:00.140 --> 01:45:07.920
Because, I thought people would think I'm ham And you're right, that fear, but unless you have experienced that, you really can't relate.

01:45:07.920 --> 01:45:09.520
But I did, I said exactly the same thing.

01:45:09.520 --> 01:45:12.119
I was like, that's a panic attack.

01:45:12.529 --> 01:45:15.010
And the same, I had this newfound respect for people.

01:45:15.039 --> 01:45:20.819
And I, not that you'd wish it on your worst enemy, but unless you've been there, you don't really know.

01:45:21.175 --> 01:45:21.604
No.

01:45:21.975 --> 01:45:26.135
And I, and the, the one thing that's, that's has stayed with me.

01:45:27.215 --> 01:45:29.744
And again, I'm, I'm for my own practices.

01:45:29.765 --> 01:45:33.414
I'm really quite reflective and I'm most of the time quite hard on myself.

01:45:33.859 --> 01:45:44.239
And I will pick up those areas of, of where it went wrong and I kind of went back over things that I've done in the past and I can see that's where I went wrong.

01:45:44.699 --> 01:45:45.880
That's where it didn't help.

01:45:46.340 --> 01:45:53.529
But my, my experience of this panic, because I, all I wanted to do was either run away or lay on the floor in a fetal position.

01:45:54.159 --> 01:46:09.609
That's all I wanted to do and, or rock and I thought to myself, the times that, you know, you want a child to sit still, the motion of being able to rock can dissipate it for them.

01:46:10.039 --> 01:46:12.310
And for me, maybe, do you know what I mean?

01:46:12.420 --> 01:46:14.979
Like you're saying, you know, you, you tickle his back.

01:46:15.329 --> 01:46:16.310
If that works, that works.

01:46:16.470 --> 01:46:22.270
But do you know when you, you just think to yourself, we need those skills and the only way we get those skills is A, from a parent, right?

01:46:22.659 --> 01:46:27.119
or be from education and understand watching, looking, listening.

01:46:28.050 --> 01:46:30.550
But sometimes people's egos get in the way, right?

01:46:30.729 --> 01:46:33.380
And it becomes, you will do what I tell

01:46:33.470 --> 01:46:34.640
My way or the highway.

01:46:35.079 --> 01:46:35.310
Yeah.

01:46:35.630 --> 01:46:39.850
And I have, and I am horrified to say this.

01:46:40.079 --> 01:46:44.609
I have heard in the past teachers saying to me, I will break that child.

01:46:45.260 --> 01:46:45.979
Wow.

01:46:46.609 --> 01:46:47.970
Like, like a wild horse.

01:46:48.399 --> 01:46:48.750
Yeah.

01:46:49.869 --> 01:46:50.460
Wow.

01:46:50.920 --> 01:46:52.810
I will break by the end of the year.

01:46:55.949 --> 01:46:56.130
And it's the idea.

01:46:56.145 --> 01:47:02.965
And I have to be honest, most of the children they've said it about, I used to think, you've got a hope in hell, mate, I tell you.

01:47:03.295 --> 01:47:10.305
Well, even knowing that your teacher feels that way because whether they say it to them or not, they will be aware of it because children are very intuitive.

01:47:10.375 --> 01:47:17.784
And so even knowing that, A, you're viewed as faulty and in need of fixing, that's a really negative message to be giving a child.

01:47:18.215 --> 01:47:27.279
But also, if you are that way inclined and your teacher sees you as a challenge, you're going to make yourself more of a challenge, right?

01:47:28.979 --> 01:47:34.770
Well, yeah, there, I mean the, the children that they were spoken about were the ones with, with the very challenging behavior.

01:47:34.770 --> 01:47:35.850
And I did think to myself,

01:47:37.630 --> 01:47:38.079
Good luck.

01:47:38.130 --> 01:47:43.920
you know, a, it was above my pay grade and, um, my influence didn't go that high.

01:47:44.130 --> 01:47:48.180
Not that it ever stopped me, but you know, they, they came a point where you just thought, nah.

01:47:48.425 --> 01:47:53.409
And it, and it is this thing about having the power.

01:47:55.824 --> 01:48:03.225
It is, you know, standing up in front of that class, relaying all this information, and it is a power thing.

01:48:03.614 --> 01:48:09.229
And You know, I have great people in the, in the profession.

01:48:09.430 --> 01:48:13.649
You know, sometimes the, the, I've got one lady in particular, she's young.

01:48:14.050 --> 01:48:17.069
She was born to be a teacher, if you can possibly say that.

01:48:17.279 --> 01:48:18.789
She's an amazing person.

01:48:18.789 --> 01:48:24.640
She's got, she's finished her, her training and has got a job in September to go into to be a qualified teacher.

01:48:25.930 --> 01:48:33.095
But I know, in the present climate, two years down the line.

01:48:33.295 --> 01:48:35.685
She won't be able to afford to stay in the profession.

01:48:35.854 --> 01:48:39.375
She'll be burnt out and she will be looking for a way out.

01:48:39.625 --> 01:48:45.704
And these, and she is an amazing and will be an amazing teacher.

01:48:46.755 --> 01:48:48.204
But she won't stay in the profession.

01:48:48.364 --> 01:48:52.104
And part of me hates saying it.

01:48:52.135 --> 01:48:53.055
I hate saying it.

01:48:53.055 --> 01:48:56.555
But she won't because it's too hard.

01:48:56.555 --> 01:48:57.944
Yeah,

01:48:58.069 --> 01:49:00.050
noticed the other day, it might have been yesterday.

01:49:00.050 --> 01:49:03.899
I was watching the telly and there was an advert recruiting for teachers.

01:49:04.409 --> 01:49:08.819
And I said, I'm sure they did this back, not long after I finished university.

01:49:09.289 --> 01:49:17.979
And there was a big recruitment drive where you would get your training paid for and you'd get an on the job wage, I suppose, not a huge wage.

01:49:18.739 --> 01:49:21.829
And I just thought, is this, we've done this.

01:49:22.279 --> 01:49:26.390
And then we're going to have to do the whole thing all over again, because people are leaving in their droves.

01:49:26.789 --> 01:49:34.270
And you're right, my brother's a teaching assistant, he works with specialist children and I won't disclose his salary, but it is not enough to live on.

01:49:34.640 --> 01:49:36.310
He has to live with, he's living with my parents.

01:49:36.899 --> 01:49:44.630
Now, it's a bit of a kind of trite cliche, but the most important job in the world is not being recognised for what it is.

01:49:45.460 --> 01:50:00.810
And the people that are saying Aren't necessarily the ones that are best to stay, because those who are very capable will go on and find careers that are, you know, not expecting them to work until one in the morning, or if they are, they're being remunerated accordingly.

01:50:01.579 --> 01:50:09.029
Now, I just wanted to ask you, and I don't know whether you can even answer this question, and it's something that comes up often, and particularly when you're talking to older generations.

01:50:09.869 --> 01:50:12.579
And it's not about the increase of diagnosis.

01:50:12.579 --> 01:50:18.390
Now, you touched on it briefly with, um, private diagnosis, and obviously that has had a massive impact.

01:50:18.750 --> 01:50:21.970
Because, um, people are aware that there is another option.

01:50:21.970 --> 01:50:25.659
I had, um, Hector was diagnosed by the NHS with autism.

01:50:25.720 --> 01:50:31.329
Um, and I was, it suggested to me at the time that I should then do a diagnosis of ADHD.

01:50:31.329 --> 01:50:34.239
But a lockdown happened, and it got put on the back burner.

01:50:34.609 --> 01:50:37.460
So I paid privately, um, so that he would have this benefit.

01:50:38.130 --> 01:50:40.819
label before he went to secondary school.

01:50:41.010 --> 01:50:43.510
And, um, so I've experienced both sides.

01:50:43.689 --> 01:50:54.449
Um, and so obviously that's contributed to an increase and awareness because ADHD was not a recognized condition in women till 1998, which is nuts.

01:50:55.149 --> 01:51:02.899
Um, so that will have played a factor, but do you think that we are, do you think, I suppose what I'm trying to say is, are there more or do we just see it more?

01:51:04.145 --> 01:51:14.215
I think there isn't any more, but I think those people who were undiagnosed are now the adults.

01:51:14.984 --> 01:51:16.354
that are fighting for it.

01:51:16.984 --> 01:51:17.694
Do you know what I mean?

01:51:18.020 --> 01:51:18.149
And

01:51:18.244 --> 01:51:25.414
I think, you know, back in my day at school, there was always the one child, whatever, how many children, and then classed as naughty.

01:51:26.305 --> 01:51:32.345
As we've progressed through it, you know, we've gone through the autism upsurge and oh, everybody's, everybody's autistic.

01:51:32.345 --> 01:51:34.085
Now everybody's ADHD, right?

01:51:34.664 --> 01:51:42.295
But what I'm, the way I see it is the people in the know now are themselves autistic.

01:51:42.364 --> 01:51:53.654
And I think that's where the surge is, because all the people we've talked about that need the education aren't necessarily the ones who have experience of it.

01:51:53.664 --> 01:51:57.454
Whether they've got it, know somebody with it, have a child with it.

01:51:58.295 --> 01:52:05.659
But I think those children, are now the adults that are saying, ah, hang on a minute, that's how I feel.

01:52:06.069 --> 01:52:12.060
And they're being diagnosed in their adulthood, as our middle daughter was diagnosed in her adulthood.

01:52:12.970 --> 01:52:16.449
And they're suddenly going, oh, that's why I think this way.

01:52:16.939 --> 01:52:18.699
And they're looking around and seeing it.

01:52:18.720 --> 01:52:20.390
So I don't think there's any more diagnosis.

01:52:20.539 --> 01:52:22.119
I just think we're better at it.

01:52:22.340 --> 01:52:23.300
It's like cancer.

01:52:23.489 --> 01:52:26.119
It's like going, oh, well, have we got more cancer?

01:52:26.119 --> 01:52:28.229
Well, no, actually, now we know to pinpoint it.

01:52:28.524 --> 01:52:29.255
We see it.

01:52:29.385 --> 01:52:37.645
We, uh, we see the early symptoms, you know, and I hate saying symptoms or traits or whatever way you want to call it, but you know, it's.

01:52:38.545 --> 01:52:45.204
Yeah, but it, but it's like if you were to say to the older generation, what is an autistic child?

01:52:45.265 --> 01:52:53.944
They will say a child that doesn't have eye contact has, as a baby decided they didn't want any kind of adult intervention.

01:52:53.960 --> 01:52:54.239
Not

01:52:54.335 --> 01:52:55.185
They were owned by them.

01:52:55.595 --> 01:52:58.055
Yeah, we know that's not true.

01:52:59.154 --> 01:53:04.074
We know because there are people, famous people, who are all autistic.

01:53:05.090 --> 01:53:08.050
No, you know, out there saying their piece.

01:53:08.199 --> 01:53:09.939
We know that you can function.

01:53:09.939 --> 01:53:11.479
We know there are high functioning.

01:53:11.710 --> 01:53:17.500
We know that there are people who are far smarter than me being diagnosed all the time.

01:53:17.539 --> 01:53:18.989
And I think that's where we are.

01:53:19.930 --> 01:53:21.140
Education is better.

01:53:23.060 --> 01:53:25.630
You can find information if you want it.

01:53:26.529 --> 01:53:36.170
We are, we are giving our children autonomy over their learning and we're giving them almost the responsibility to say, I have it.

01:53:36.520 --> 01:53:37.250
Look at me.

01:53:38.114 --> 01:53:44.104
Because that's the thing, it was shame before, it was about, you were never said, we're just a bit different, he's a bit different,

01:53:44.229 --> 01:53:44.319
quirky.

01:53:45.255 --> 01:53:46.505
a bit quirky, yeah, a bit quirky.

01:53:46.744 --> 01:53:52.854
Or, oh well, we don't, we don't, we don't go to the park very often, you know, because too many people.

01:53:52.930 --> 01:53:54.779
well I'm thinking about my brother in Fireworks.

01:53:54.840 --> 01:53:59.920
Like, he just, he used to just have these, what I see now, massive meltdowns at Fireworks.

01:53:59.960 --> 01:54:06.069
And we went to Dis I mean, we tease him mercilessly about it, which has probably not helped with, you know, the accumulative trauma.

01:54:06.510 --> 01:54:07.310
It's a small world.

01:54:07.350 --> 01:54:09.460
He just, like, screaming in the queue.

01:54:09.859 --> 01:54:12.729
But I took the kids we took the kids to Florida this year.

01:54:13.239 --> 01:54:20.539
It's horrible! Disney World for a neurodeveloped it's like, I mean, some people love it, but it The sensory overload, plus the heat.

01:54:21.100 --> 01:54:22.380
No wonder he hated it.

01:54:22.640 --> 01:54:35.654
But of course now I, I, actually, I think what, I know what happened for me was Hector was diagnosed and I then, um, learned about how it presents in children, which led to me looking at how it presents in girls and women.

01:54:35.944 --> 01:54:41.574
And, um, actually there was a, there is a friend of mine who's got a daughter with a double, double diagnosis.

01:54:42.345 --> 01:54:47.675
And I was looking at her and she, at the time she was about 10, I'm thinking, she's just like me, just like I was as a teenager.

01:54:48.085 --> 01:54:51.604
And then you start to question and then you go on a little bit of an investigation.

01:54:51.944 --> 01:54:53.045
But I don't know whether.

01:54:53.345 --> 01:55:05.604
I would have found out were it not for Hector being diagnosed because it wasn't on, like I said to you, when the um, educational psychologist came to the house, she said to me, um, I mentioned autism, I said, well, you know, he doesn't make, he makes eye contact.

01:55:05.675 --> 01:55:09.104
And she said, well, yes, with you, because he loves you, but what's with other people?

01:55:09.494 --> 01:55:16.645
And I know other adult women who have plucked up the courage in a world that seems to ridicule those who seek a diagnosis, actually.

01:55:17.284 --> 01:55:20.175
They plucked up the courage to go to often a male psychiatrist.

01:55:20.760 --> 01:55:35.590
Present with their symptoms, and they are, sorry, characteristics, and they are told you've made eye contact, you've got a job, you're married, you know, a litany of reasons why they can't possibly be autistic, which then adds to their feeling of shame, because now they feel like they're making this up.

01:55:36.079 --> 01:55:44.289
So, it's, it, the whole, I mean, in your, in your opinion, there I ask, what, what would you like to see change?

01:55:44.289 --> 01:55:46.090
What is the primary thing you would like to see change?

01:55:46.090 --> 01:55:47.430
And particularly in schools, I'm thinking.

01:55:47.430 --> 01:55:47.579
Thank you for listening.

01:55:48.404 --> 01:55:57.079
What I really liked, what I'd like to see change, I would like to see, um, Schools invite specialists in.

01:55:57.710 --> 01:56:00.239
I, I think that the government needs to stop all this.

01:56:01.000 --> 01:56:07.939
You know, while we're trained teachers to do this, this, and this, and this, and this, we'll wear multiple hats and we're masters of none.

01:56:08.670 --> 01:56:12.460
Every school needs somebody who is a specialist.

01:56:12.460 --> 01:56:16.319
Lesenko, God love any Senko.

01:56:16.470 --> 01:56:20.550
It's like, again, it's like living in a hole, in a wall somewhere.

01:56:20.760 --> 01:56:24.020
Because you only see people when there's something wrong.

01:56:24.899 --> 01:56:25.970
They need a specialist.

01:56:25.970 --> 01:56:29.670
They need somebody who will be able to advise.

01:56:30.595 --> 01:56:32.614
There'll be somebody who will be able to train.

01:56:32.824 --> 01:56:45.204
There'll be somebody that will be able to have a conversation with a parent, with the SENCO, the teachers, the head teacher or principal, whatever way you want to call it, that bridges the gap between it.

01:56:45.204 --> 01:56:54.395
Because until we bridge the gap between parents and the education environment, we're never getting to get anywhere.

01:56:54.595 --> 01:56:56.375
Because parents are poo pooed.

01:56:56.774 --> 01:56:57.045
You're over.

01:56:58.270 --> 01:57:04.689
too weak, too, too disciplinary, or you're, you know too much, or you don't know enough, or you don't take responsibility.

01:57:06.265 --> 01:57:07.555
We need to bridge that gap.

01:57:07.614 --> 01:57:17.404
So every school I know they wanna do a wellbeing, um, person or mentor or whatever, but we need it for SEN and we, we need it for SEND.

01:57:17.645 --> 01:57:20.824
That's not just going to be for the children who have diagnosis.

01:57:20.975 --> 01:57:30.935
It's got to be across the board because sometimes you'll get a child that presents in a way in Year R, but by the time they get to year four.

01:57:32.569 --> 01:57:34.340
But we've put all the right things in, yeah?

01:57:34.720 --> 01:57:36.729
You know, the parent does all the right things.

01:57:37.189 --> 01:57:38.760
The school does all the right things.

01:57:39.409 --> 01:57:48.279
But when you start going down the line, and I'm just blurbing now, going down parenting, how insulting is it to say to a parent, you need to go to parenting classes?

01:57:48.375 --> 01:57:48.925
Yes.

01:57:49.024 --> 01:57:49.545
Yes.

01:57:49.954 --> 01:57:50.864
Yes.

01:57:51.399 --> 01:57:53.869
It is the biggest insult

01:57:54.564 --> 01:57:56.954
And it immediately creates this feeling of being at fault.

01:57:57.194 --> 01:57:58.694
And again, the shame, the stigma.

01:57:58.914 --> 01:58:00.095
Well, I've done something wrong.

01:58:00.095 --> 01:58:01.024
It's my fault.

01:58:01.265 --> 01:58:06.085
And that, it's not, that's a really damaging kind of mantra for you to have as a parent.

01:58:06.364 --> 01:58:13.359
And often, and we briefly touched, but a lot of the parents of these children will be neurodivergent, whether it's diagnosed or not.

01:58:13.689 --> 01:58:18.079
So, you know, it's almost like a, like a rejection sensitivity.

01:58:18.090 --> 01:58:21.979
You know, we, we spoke ourselves about not taking criticism that well.

01:58:22.010 --> 01:58:25.250
So you, you know, a parent comes to you for help and you go, you need to go to a parenting class.

01:58:25.930 --> 01:58:26.430
Oh, fuck you.

01:58:26.609 --> 01:58:26.930
Right.

01:58:28.055 --> 01:58:35.704
but it, but it's also, but it, but it just doesn't stop there, and it, and it's the same with, you know, you, you, you call in a parent, you say, because the child's behavior, and the,

01:58:36.103 --> 01:58:37.369
Hmm.

01:58:37.385 --> 01:58:45.864
and the parent may, you know, will say, and we will say it, because it's our children, oh, you know, that's not what we expect, or he wouldn't do that, or whatever.

01:58:46.744 --> 01:58:52.555
And then you get the teacher or the head teacher or whoever say, well, that's what he does at school.

01:58:53.305 --> 01:58:57.704
And you're thinking, okay, but we need to come to, we're, we're meant to be on the same side, right?

01:58:57.885 --> 01:58:59.614
We're all meant to be playing the game together.

01:58:59.614 --> 01:59:00.814
We're all on the same side.

01:59:00.814 --> 01:59:02.015
We're not on oppositions.

01:59:02.154 --> 01:59:13.545
We're meant to be going down the same route with this child to create a fully rounded child who reaches their potential that you can pat yourself on the back as, as their, their teacher and say, didn't I do a good job?

01:59:13.935 --> 01:59:19.484
Between us, him and I, or her and I, together we went through this journey and look at what they've learned.

01:59:19.694 --> 01:59:20.954
Look at where they are now.

01:59:21.265 --> 01:59:24.895
But it doesn't work like that, because it's, because people take it personally.

01:59:25.345 --> 01:59:30.335
But as a parent, I've had parents come into me fuming.

01:59:30.604 --> 01:59:33.185
And I get it, and I get the school side of it.

01:59:33.335 --> 01:59:49.515
I used to go to all the appointments with parents, at my school because I felt that school needed to be part of that, if the parent allowed me to go, but also the doctors needed to have the school side of things.

01:59:50.074 --> 01:59:57.734
But my biggest thing was, yeah, but my biggest thing was, That it's nobody's fault.

01:59:59.524 --> 02:00:10.435
And if the school isn't coping, then the school needs to put their hands up and say, like, again, I'm saying, you know, the environment of being able to say, stiff up a lip, you know, we've got to be, I can't cope.

02:00:10.765 --> 02:00:11.835
I'm not coping.

02:00:12.034 --> 02:00:13.664
Help me, mum.

02:00:13.975 --> 02:00:17.114
Help me, dad, to understand your child.

02:00:17.574 --> 02:00:18.534
This is what I'm doing.

02:00:18.534 --> 02:00:22.104
Tell me where, what I'm doing is not working.

02:00:22.800 --> 02:00:27.149
Because aren't we meant to be the parent for seven hours a day?

02:00:27.470 --> 02:00:27.909
yeah.

02:00:28.270 --> 02:00:30.789
And it's about that, uh, consistency as well.

02:00:30.810 --> 02:00:35.979
So you might have school putting in strategies, but the parents completely disregarding them at home or vice versa.

02:00:36.640 --> 02:00:39.229
Now, I am aware of the time, because I've got school one to do.

02:00:39.550 --> 02:00:42.159
And, um, we knew this would be a long one, didn't we?

02:00:42.390 --> 02:00:59.435
And I've just got one, one final question that is something that I'm, I, I, I know what my view is, and I'd be interested to know yours, and that is, what do you feel, how do you think about sort of, um, like a standardized screening when children, A, perhaps started, um, Key Stage 1, and perhaps when they left primary school?

02:00:59.954 --> 02:01:14.024
Voluntary, I'm not talking, you know, sort of, you know, branding them or anything like that, but the idea that parents could opt in or opt out of a sort of quite base screening that would indicate any, um, any indicators of neurodivergence.

02:01:14.024 --> 02:01:22.909
Um, I sat in the nail shop next to a lady the other day and she, her daughter goes to Canterbury University and she said they had done this as part of their first year.

02:01:23.579 --> 02:01:35.789
Um, I don't know what she's studying, whether it was part of the curriculum or whether it was just a sort of experimental thing, but, and her daughter, as it happened, has scored quite highly and, um, which led us to a conversation about labelling.

02:01:35.840 --> 02:01:40.409
Now, I personally think this is quite a good idea, but I can also see how it could be open to abuse.

02:01:40.460 --> 02:01:43.119
And I just wondered what, you know, your, your view was.

02:01:44.024 --> 02:01:46.614
Well, we'll have to go with, we'll have to do another one

02:01:46.930 --> 02:01:47.710
heh heh

02:01:47.765 --> 02:02:02.564
think that there are tools out there, there are tools out there that you can do, um, and I've done them in school, which is, you know, you get, one of them is boxall, boxall profile, you heard of it,

02:02:03.520 --> 02:02:08.319
Sorry, you cut out then, I missed what you said, that's why I was looking a bit gormless, like what?

02:02:08.755 --> 02:02:18.185
So the boxall profile, um, there is another couple that you can do that help with, you know, pinpointing certain areas.

02:02:18.925 --> 02:02:26.885
The social aspect, the biggest thing about, and it doesn't, it's not about labelling, it's not about any of it, but it's picking up on how they score.

02:02:27.104 --> 02:02:29.954
You know, are they a collector of friends?

02:02:30.895 --> 02:02:35.510
If they are, how do we then change that?

02:02:35.750 --> 02:02:46.029
You know, if you, if you observe a child and you say, right, if you've got a question that says, does this child do the peripheral, just walk around on their own, walk around the edge of the field, right?

02:02:46.130 --> 02:02:46.539
That's fine.

02:02:47.079 --> 02:02:58.100
If this child, and it's normally girls, go, go around and collect all the girls together and we're all going to play a game, but they all fall out because the child that collected them all together only wants to play with one child.

02:02:58.479 --> 02:02:59.550
And they only want to play their game.

02:03:00.130 --> 02:03:00.399
Yeah.

02:03:00.670 --> 02:03:01.000
Tick.

02:03:02.149 --> 02:03:09.550
Then we need to look at strategies on how we then incorporate a change to that.

02:03:09.859 --> 02:03:15.000
If you can't change it and we know that this is a mindset, then okay, that's another mark over here.

02:03:15.159 --> 02:03:17.920
But maybe we need to do a friendship group.

02:03:17.960 --> 02:03:25.520
Maybe we need to do, um, an intervention where we sit down and we talk about what a real friend is, what makes a friend.

02:03:25.689 --> 02:03:29.159
Get the big bowl out with all the words and say, what do you class as a friend?

02:03:29.199 --> 02:03:32.010
Let's put it into a big, big old bowl, stir it together.

02:03:32.300 --> 02:03:33.399
What does a friendship mean?

02:03:33.409 --> 02:03:35.420
Because children don't know what friends are.

02:03:36.050 --> 02:03:36.890
You know, that's a tick.

02:03:36.960 --> 02:03:50.430
But if we did a screener in year R, year 4, because year 4 is a really important year, and then year 6, then we could see whether or not we have any correlation between them.

02:03:50.600 --> 02:04:01.859
If the child in year R is still doing the same things in year 6, and there has been no problems that people have picked up on, but they're wallpaper, then there's an issue.

02:04:02.310 --> 02:04:10.715
But if we've put in the interventions like, you know, friendship groups or, you know, those, the other thing is, do they like playtime?

02:04:11.319 --> 02:04:11.720
Yeah.

02:04:12.534 --> 02:04:23.005
Unstructured time is hugely important and it's so stressful, you know, so, but as a whole, you know, but yeah, no, I do, I think it would be a good idea.

02:04:23.255 --> 02:04:36.835
It's very, as long as the information is used appropriately, which it comes into this whole thing about teachers and staff having a proper place to be able to air and be, and it be positive.

02:04:37.310 --> 02:05:10.454
I'm not coping rather than the tittle tattling in the corridor or before the child changes classes or oh god you're going into that class oh you've got this do you know what I mean use the information use the data that we've got to be able to pick up on these places you know how many times did your child come home and say you say who did you play with so what did you nothing I played with nobody nobody played with me having that one thing if you came in as a mother and said do you know what she said that she didn't play with anybody Rather than the teacher going, Well, she did.

02:05:10.454 --> 02:05:12.492
So do you know what?

02:05:12.492 --> 02:05:12.845
Let's see.

02:05:13.125 --> 02:05:13.725
Let's have a look.

02:05:13.944 --> 02:05:18.625
Let's kind of go down and see if we can find out what she classes as play.

02:05:18.864 --> 02:05:20.505
Or he classes as play.

02:05:21.335 --> 02:05:23.375
As opposed to what's really going on.

02:05:24.385 --> 02:05:26.515
You know, observations, that's the other thing.

02:05:26.534 --> 02:05:29.675
Observations at non structured times are the best.

02:05:30.604 --> 02:05:33.135
You get to see everything at that time.

02:05:33.555 --> 02:05:34.944
Well, even as a mother, I like it.

02:05:34.944 --> 02:05:35.824
I like to spot them.

02:05:35.824 --> 02:05:41.024
You know, if I turn up a bit early and you can watch them at dance or something like that, I like to watch my children.

02:05:41.204 --> 02:05:41.895
That sounds creepy.

02:05:42.414 --> 02:05:53.864
I like to watch them out of context because when they're with you, you're getting one version of them, but you seeing them interact with their peers or with other adults, I think it's really fascinating because they are different, aren't they?

02:05:53.864 --> 02:05:59.295
yeah, but it's, but it's like, uh, you know, times like you talked about your daughter at lunch time.

02:05:59.885 --> 02:06:05.185
Again, seriously, you're taking a child that may be hypersensitive to sound.

02:06:06.404 --> 02:06:10.145
Or to texture, let's say they're not, they're not eating certain things.

02:06:10.545 --> 02:06:18.164
You're putting them in a hall, which has acoustics that are, that, that makes the, you know, Grand Central Station sound quiet.

02:06:18.875 --> 02:06:25.954
And we expect those children to eat their food at a rate of knots, because otherwise you'll miss your playtime.

02:06:25.954 --> 02:06:28.074
And we expect them all to be okay.

02:06:28.074 --> 02:06:29.664
They might be sitting next to

02:06:30.140 --> 02:06:34.159
And often a food that, if they've got sensory issues, is not palatable for them as well.

02:06:34.159 --> 02:06:35.659
I have to say, she has a packed lunch now.

02:06:36.119 --> 02:06:38.100
Now, Juliana, I want to keep talking to you.

02:06:38.140 --> 02:06:39.899
I could talk to you for hours and hours.

02:06:39.899 --> 02:06:42.729
We have just recorded two hours and four minutes already.

02:06:43.079 --> 02:06:49.234
But, if I don't turn up on time to pick my neurodivergent son up, Hell hath no fury, so I do have to go.

02:06:49.515 --> 02:06:51.414
But it's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you.

02:06:51.414 --> 02:06:53.314
Thank you so much for giving me your time today.

02:06:53.654 --> 02:06:58.814
And for any of the listeners out there, if you've got questions, I know that Juliana herself would be more than happy to answer them.

02:06:59.074 --> 02:07:02.835
Have you got, what's, where are you, um, have you got a website or anything I can direct people

02:07:03.000 --> 02:07:06.090
I've got my, I've got, you've got my, uh, web address, haven't you?

02:07:06.425 --> 02:07:12.430
I will, I tell you what, I, I, I will put Juliana's email address on the episode notes so that you guys can contact her.

02:07:12.739 --> 02:07:19.609
Um, and you can always come to me and I can direct any questions, but thank you so much because that was absolutely invaluable.

02:07:19.609 --> 02:07:21.300
And I feel like we barely touched the surface.

02:07:21.310 --> 02:07:22.510
I think we need to schedule in another.

02:07:23.010 --> 02:07:24.399
I, agreed, agreed.

02:07:24.670 --> 02:07:25.220
Thank you.

02:07:25.260 --> 02:07:27.529
And thank you for everything you have done for our children.

02:07:27.560 --> 02:07:38.850
Um, and I mean this as a, you know, the mother of a child with additional needs, because the knowledge that there are people out there like you that are fighting for them and care about them is, it means that our battles feel a little bit less lonely.

02:07:39.090 --> 02:07:40.180
So thank you very much.

02:07:40.760 --> 02:07:41.239
Pleasure.