Nov. 12, 2024

S1 - EP8 - The Hidden Story of Service: How 9/11 Shaped Adele Garcia’s Path

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S1 - EP8 - The Hidden Story of Service: How 9/11 Shaped Adele Garcia’s Path
S1 - EP8 - The Hidden Story of Service: How 9/11 Shaped Adele Garcia’s Path
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Season 1

Welcome back to Chatty AF! In this episode, I sit down with Adele Garcia, an extraordinary woman I met at a retreat in Michigan. We bonded over shared stories, and I knew her journey was one I had to share with you. Adele served in the U.S. Army, and her story is one of courage, resilience, and tough choices.

Adele opens up about joining the military at a young age, driven by a sense of adventure and a desire to see the world. Her early days in the service were fueled by purpose and curiosity, but everything changed on September 11th. That day reshaped her career and outlook on life, transforming her path in ways she hadn’t expected. After 9/11, Adele felt a renewed call to serve her country, but that commitment came with sacrifices that impacted not only her but her family as well.

Through our conversation, Adele shares the difficult choices she had to make to continue her service. Balancing her duty with family obligations meant making heart-wrenching decisions, missing significant moments with loved ones, and coping with the strain that military life placed on her relationships. Yet, through it all, Adele’s dedication only deepened. She navigated the challenges of being away from her family while finding strength in the camaraderie of her fellow soldiers and learning the importance of resilience and support networks.

This episode is a powerful exploration of how major life events can redefine our values and priorities. Adele’s story reminds us that growth often comes from life’s most challenging moments and that even the hardest choices can lead to a life of purpose and strength.

Resources and Links Mentioned:

This episode is for anyone who’s ever faced tough decisions between duty and family, and for those seeking a story of resilience, purpose, and the transformative power of shared experience. Grab a cup of tea, get comfy, and let’s dive into Adele’s world together.


Connect with the show
Web : https://www.chatty-af.com/
Instagram : @chatty_af_podcast and @rosie_gill_moss

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Disclaimers: The content of this podcast is for informational purposes only. The experiences and opinions expressed by the guest are personal and should not be taken as general advice. Listeners are encouraged to seek professional support for similar issues. The producers and host are not responsible for any actions taken based on the information provided in this episode.

Chapters

00:00 - Welcome to Chatty AF

03:00 - First Impressions: Meeting Adele

08:00 - A Young Adventurer: Joining the Army

15:00 - Military Life Before 9/11

25:00 - The Day That Changed Everything: September 11th

35:00 - Redefining Purpose Post-9/11

45:00 - Challenges in a Male-Dominated Field

55:00 - Family on the Front Lines

01:05:00 - Finding Strength in Community

01:15:00 - Moments of Vulnerability and Growth

01:25:00 - Lessons from Service: Reflections on Life and Duty

Transcript
WEBVTT

00:00:03.109 --> 00:00:05.549
Hello and a very warm welcome back to Chatty AF.

00:00:05.860 --> 00:00:06.790
You're here with me.

00:00:06.830 --> 00:00:08.539
I'm your host Rosie Gill-Moss.

00:00:09.630 --> 00:00:15.720
Throughout this series, I've been incredibly fortunate that I've been able to speak to some truly inspirational people.

00:00:16.440 --> 00:00:21.350
And I want this to become a platform, a place if you like, where people can come and tell their stories.

00:00:22.179 --> 00:00:27.219
Many of you will know that this is the sister podcast of Widowed AF, which is where widows come to tell their story.

00:00:27.219 --> 00:00:32.994
And what I realised was that There was still a place or a gap for other people to tell their stories.

00:00:34.125 --> 00:00:39.104
And along the way, I keep meeting the most incredible people.

00:00:39.365 --> 00:00:41.195
And today's guest is no exception.

00:00:41.594 --> 00:00:45.994
I met Adele while I was on a retreat in Michigan last week.

00:00:46.844 --> 00:00:49.674
And we got talking around the table as women on retreats do.

00:00:49.674 --> 00:00:52.314
And we were sharing war stories.

00:00:52.445 --> 00:01:01.479
And the reason I sort of paused on that, that's that word is because Adele's story is a story of war she was, in the American military.

00:01:02.770 --> 00:01:04.829
I know the bare bones of her story.

00:01:04.980 --> 00:01:06.920
I know it's going to be a good one.

00:01:07.510 --> 00:01:19.409
And as I said, I hope that this does continue to become a place where we share the difficult stories, the things that perhaps people aren't talking about, or we get some advice from the issues that people are talking about.

00:01:20.219 --> 00:01:22.319
, I've got more incredible guests lined up.

00:01:22.430 --> 00:01:25.900
Um, some of whom are going to really bare their souls about some.

00:01:26.924 --> 00:01:30.454
Some pretty traumatic stuff as well as some inspiring stuff.

00:01:31.265 --> 00:01:36.995
But anyway, I'm gonna stop yakking on now because the next voices you'll hear will be me and Adele Garcia.

00:01:40.114 --> 00:01:42.745
Hello Adele and welcome to Chatty AF.

00:01:42.745 --> 00:01:45.364
It's absolutely fantastic to have you on today.

00:01:45.754 --> 00:01:57.234
I did do a little bit of a pre record before we came on and just to explain that we met in America last week and I was so keen to get you on that I managed to pin you down within about three days of getting home so thank you ever so much for doing

00:01:57.275 --> 00:01:57.474
Absolutely.

00:01:57.484 --> 00:01:58.204
Thanks for having me here.

00:01:58.204 --> 00:01:58.825
I'm excited.

00:02:00.405 --> 00:02:00.724
Yeah,

00:02:00.969 --> 00:02:01.750
it's cool, isn't it?

00:02:01.780 --> 00:02:11.949
And it's kind of nice because often I'll meet people on the podcast and then I'll meet them afterwards whereas I've met you in person first and managed to persuade you on the podcast so a little bit different this time around.

00:02:12.849 --> 00:02:26.465
Now, the reason I am so fascinated to talk to Adele is we were sitting, you know, as women do, having a chat and Adele said that she used to be in the US Army Now that in itself is kind of unusual.

00:02:26.465 --> 00:02:29.935
I don't think I know anybody, any other women who are in the military.

00:02:30.125 --> 00:02:35.705
And as we were talking, you know, you shared with me some of the things that happened to you whilst in the military.

00:02:35.705 --> 00:02:38.764
And I guess I just wanted to find out more.

00:02:38.835 --> 00:02:43.064
And so when I said to Adele, do you think we could have a conversation on microphone?

00:02:43.365 --> 00:02:44.435
I'm sort of like, please.

00:02:44.735 --> 00:02:45.585
And you said yes.

00:02:45.604 --> 00:02:50.995
And I thought this is such a wonderful opportunity for me to find out more, but also to talk about something that.

00:02:51.284 --> 00:02:52.955
There isn't a huge amount of information out there.

00:02:52.965 --> 00:02:55.754
I, I don't know much about women in the military at all.

00:02:56.824 --> 00:03:05.495
So, I'm going to kick off, I think, by getting you to just tell me a little bit about yourself, where you come from, and, um, you know, what prompted you to go into the

00:03:05.604 --> 00:03:05.895
Sure.

00:03:05.905 --> 00:03:06.354
Yeah.

00:03:06.384 --> 00:03:12.525
So, um, I, you know, during my high school years was keen on going to college.

00:03:12.525 --> 00:03:16.544
You know, that was like, that's how in America, like, you know, you go to high school, you go to college, that's it.

00:03:17.259 --> 00:03:20.840
Unfortunately, nobody really explained to me how you pay for college.

00:03:20.870 --> 00:03:28.280
And so when I was a senior, um, you know, I get, I get accepted to the university I wanted, and then it came down to, there was no money.

00:03:28.319 --> 00:03:32.250
Like my parents didn't have any money for me and there was nobody to help me like get loans.

00:03:33.020 --> 00:03:34.780
And I really didn't have many options.

00:03:34.800 --> 00:03:51.159
And so at 17, I decided to join the army because, um, that's kind of, I don't want to say that's the only way out, but like, if you don't want to stay in your hometown, you don't want to work in a factory, you can't go to university, it's like that's usually the only alternative, um, at least in the 90s it was.

00:03:51.530 --> 00:03:53.360
So I joined at 17.

00:03:53.370 --> 00:03:59.939
My parents had to sign over their custodial rights to me because, um, I didn't turn 18 until almost halfway through my training.

00:04:00.495 --> 00:04:01.594
So I was just a kid.

00:04:02.004 --> 00:04:07.004
He was like over the moon excited because he was um, he served in the army during the Korean War era.

00:04:07.354 --> 00:04:09.245
Um, so he was over the moon excited.

00:04:09.245 --> 00:04:10.764
My mom was very terrified.

00:04:10.775 --> 00:04:17.095
I don't think she was really comfortable with it, but between my dad and, and, and me, we, we really persuaded her to sign the papers.

00:04:17.105 --> 00:04:18.235
So she didn't have a choice.

00:04:19.199 --> 00:04:20.129
Seventeen year old girls

00:04:20.230 --> 00:04:20.915
Right, right?

00:04:21.149 --> 00:04:21.550
can't they?

00:04:23.055 --> 00:04:28.355
So yeah, so I joined, and um, It was definitely a culture shock.

00:04:28.365 --> 00:04:32.795
It was the first time I ever left, on a plane before and I was by myself going to a whole different state.

00:04:33.154 --> 00:04:36.495
Um, and you know, it was a huge life lesson for me.

00:04:36.495 --> 00:04:38.095
A lot of people didn't think I could do it.

00:04:38.115 --> 00:04:40.235
I was very much a girly girl in high school.

00:04:40.600 --> 00:04:46.230
Um, you know, I ran, I ran track, I was in a lot of theater, um, just was your typical girl.

00:04:46.230 --> 00:04:49.750
And so a lot of people were like, why, why are you joining the army?

00:04:49.779 --> 00:04:54.589
And people would even say, well, it's okay if you quit, like nobody will be mad at you.

00:04:54.649 --> 00:04:55.870
Nobody will be disappointed.

00:04:55.899 --> 00:04:57.529
And then it was like, well, no, I can't quit.

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Like I have to do it.

00:04:58.930 --> 00:05:00.110
Um, so I was motivated.

00:05:00.110 --> 00:05:02.540
I'm like, I'm going to get through this no matter how hard it is.

00:05:02.569 --> 00:05:03.990
And I'm going to prove everybody wrong.

00:05:04.459 --> 00:05:05.779
So that's kind of how it all started.

00:05:07.829 --> 00:05:10.550
I'm thinking of the Goldie film, Goldie

00:05:10.930 --> 00:05:11.180
Yes,

00:05:11.350 --> 00:05:12.680
if I'd gone into the military.

00:05:12.949 --> 00:05:13.899
How did you find that?

00:05:13.980 --> 00:05:18.529
Because it must have been such an enormous culture shock from being at high school to being

00:05:18.564 --> 00:05:20.725
Yeah, it was, it was terrifying.

00:05:20.725 --> 00:05:21.435
I'm not gonna lie.

00:05:21.464 --> 00:05:23.204
And back in, this was in 1998.

00:05:23.214 --> 00:05:25.774
So back then, you know, the military is a lot different now.

00:05:26.004 --> 00:05:28.264
Um, but back then, you know, we didn't have cell phones.

00:05:28.334 --> 00:05:29.754
We didn't have social media anyways.

00:05:29.785 --> 00:05:33.384
Um, and so you, it was, you were completely cut off from everything.

00:05:33.769 --> 00:05:36.000
Um, I don't think I got to call home.

00:05:36.810 --> 00:05:43.819
I think when I got to South Carolina, we got to check in and just call like for 30 seconds and just tell your family I made it okay.

00:05:44.029 --> 00:05:48.939
And then I think it was like a couple of weeks before you got to like communicate with anybody outside of the military.

00:05:49.329 --> 00:05:58.329
Um, so it was very isolating and the way I like to describe it is that they do for better or worse, a really good job of stripping you down and just.

00:05:58.805 --> 00:06:07.375
completely deconstructing everything you know about life and then building you back up into the soldier they want you to be, um, for better or worse, like I said.

00:06:07.425 --> 00:06:10.935
Um, and so at the age of 17, you're so easily impressionable.

00:06:10.935 --> 00:06:14.985
It's not hard because you only know what you know from your family.

00:06:15.324 --> 00:06:19.464
Um, and so it was a lot of culture shock, a lot of exercise.

00:06:19.524 --> 00:06:20.220
out a lot.

00:06:20.764 --> 00:06:21.105
This is,

00:06:21.310 --> 00:06:22.629
Yeah, a lot of push ups.

00:06:23.149 --> 00:06:31.730
Um a lot of uh, we call them cherry pickers you stand and you put your hands out and you just like kind of like Like do this with your hands um, just picking your fingers, but like

00:06:32.975 --> 00:06:33.214
See, it

00:06:33.319 --> 00:06:33.439
No,

00:06:33.504 --> 00:06:34.535
easy, but you know it's not

00:06:34.579 --> 00:06:40.800
no, not especially when it's like an hour long and you're just standing there doing so lots of just uh, Mass corporal punishment.

00:06:40.839 --> 00:06:42.300
Uh, that's like the army's way.

00:06:42.319 --> 00:06:44.175
At least it was Speak to it now.

00:06:44.310 --> 00:06:47.379
And is that like, right, everybody drop and give me 50 push ups,

00:06:47.480 --> 00:06:55.339
Yep And you know like they when you hear the drills drill instructors say half right face You That means you're going down and you're going to be doing pushups for a long time.

00:06:55.759 --> 00:06:57.720
And, uh, yeah, yeah.

00:06:57.720 --> 00:06:59.069
So, um,

00:07:00.759 --> 00:07:04.100
how, as a 17 year old, did you take that level of, um, authority?

00:07:04.139 --> 00:07:10.550
Because I'm thinking back to myself as a 17 year old, and, you know, I was very much two fingers at being told what to do in any circumstance.

00:07:10.550 --> 00:07:17.610
Did you, did you push, I'm, I'm, I'm, can I interrupt you because I'm so interested, but did you sort of push back to that

00:07:17.879 --> 00:07:19.670
no, no, I was terrified.

00:07:19.709 --> 00:07:22.040
So I grew up going to Catholic schools.

00:07:22.050 --> 00:07:28.769
So I was already kind of programmed to like, you do what you're told you follow, you know, you follow the priest, you follow the nuns.

00:07:29.139 --> 00:07:32.459
Um, and so from that aspect, I was terrified of the drill sergeant.

00:07:32.459 --> 00:07:34.339
So if they told me to do something, I was doing it.

00:07:34.339 --> 00:07:34.589
I wasn't.

00:07:34.985 --> 00:07:40.785
You know, and I would observe other people that would push back and then see the trouble they got into.

00:07:40.785 --> 00:07:50.095
And I was like, no, like, so I was really good about like recognizing the patterns with other people and then being like, okay, if I don't do that, I'm going to get ahead.

00:07:50.824 --> 00:07:51.774
So here's an example.

00:07:51.785 --> 00:07:53.574
So, um, there's no alarm clock.

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So you just had to know when to get up in the morning.

00:07:56.954 --> 00:07:57.935
Um, and.

00:07:58.660 --> 00:08:05.019
Well, yeah, well, the drill sergeants would come in and wake you up, but if you waited until they woke you up, you would get no time in the bathroom.

00:08:05.069 --> 00:08:06.980
So like there was one, we call it latrines.

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You'd have like 10 sinks, 10 toilets, and there's like 50 girls.

00:08:11.629 --> 00:08:14.939
And so everybody, it's just chaos.

00:08:15.079 --> 00:08:27.629
And so after like two or three days, I realized I'm like, wait a minute, if I can program myself to get up before everybody else, can like tiptoe down to the bathroom, do my stuff, come back, and then I can help my bunkmates.

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Get up, get ready.

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And so that's what I did.

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I just trained myself to literally get up without an alarm clock.

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Um, I don't know how I did it.

00:08:34.825 --> 00:08:37.514
I just programmed my brain to like wake up before everybody else.

00:08:38.105 --> 00:08:38.585
Um,

00:08:39.639 --> 00:08:41.200
But do you know what you mentioned there?

00:08:41.250 --> 00:08:43.820
And you sort of slipped it in without really noticing, I think.

00:08:43.830 --> 00:08:46.970
And it's the fact that you got up early and then you went to help your bunkmates.

00:08:47.105 --> 00:08:53.404
well, yeah, because like, if everybody wasn't towing the line when the drill instructors told you to, then everybody got in trouble.

00:08:53.625 --> 00:09:00.524
So like, you know, and that was part of my, and I truly believe that was part of what they were shooting for was that like, they wanted us to learn how to work together.

00:09:01.745 --> 00:09:02.075
Yeah.

00:09:02.075 --> 00:09:04.754
And you're only as strong as the weakest person in your area.

00:09:04.784 --> 00:09:08.585
So we had four bunkmates to like a little quad area.

00:09:08.894 --> 00:09:13.355
Um, and so I had one bunkmate that was just like an awful, she was not a morning person.

00:09:13.365 --> 00:09:14.174
Like she was awful.

00:09:14.195 --> 00:09:15.794
Like she just dragged every day.

00:09:15.794 --> 00:09:16.654
So it was like, okay.

00:09:17.139 --> 00:09:21.470
Like if I can get up, get ready, and then I'll drag her to the bathroom, make her bed.

00:09:21.570 --> 00:09:28.320
So like, maybe in hindsight I wasn't really helping her because she didn't, you know, get to take care of everything on her own.

00:09:28.330 --> 00:09:29.940
But I was like, I just don't want to see her in trouble.

00:09:29.950 --> 00:09:35.225
Like, I just Yeah, I was like, whatever I can do to make it easier for everybody, I'm all about it.

00:09:35.264 --> 00:09:37.355
So that was like my first like lesson.

00:09:37.820 --> 00:09:37.960
And that's it.

00:09:39.379 --> 00:09:45.450
And it's interesting, I was going to ask you how many women there were in the army at this point, I mean, there were in your regiment, excuse me.

00:09:45.950 --> 00:09:49.259
Um, and it's interesting you said there was 50, so this is at the training

00:09:49.284 --> 00:09:53.225
there was probably, I would say between 50 and 75, if I remember correctly.

00:09:53.225 --> 00:09:53.485
Yeah.

00:09:53.485 --> 00:09:54.144
Yeah.

00:09:54.144 --> 00:09:55.705
But there were,

00:09:56.639 --> 00:09:57.019
And you're kept

00:09:57.184 --> 00:10:01.705
um, so our, we did all of our activities, all our training was co ed, but then we slept separate.

00:10:01.705 --> 00:10:03.754
So we had like a whole, like, you know, to the female.

00:10:03.804 --> 00:10:04.154
Yeah.

00:10:04.414 --> 00:10:07.764
Um, and trust me, there were still people that like snuck away to do things.

00:10:07.764 --> 00:10:12.139
And I was like, are you even wait, like, and then you get in more trouble if you got caught.

00:10:12.139 --> 00:10:14.279
So I'm like, why are people wasting their time doing that?

00:10:14.370 --> 00:10:15.629
Like, just, just, wait.

00:10:16.549 --> 00:10:18.179
All right, exactly.

00:10:19.929 --> 00:10:29.480
But um, yeah, so I mean, you know, I just, it was a culture shock, but I think once I realized those patterns and what I could do to like make life a little bit easier, I just kept doing that.

00:10:29.529 --> 00:10:30.710
I just kept my head down.

00:10:31.220 --> 00:10:32.659
Um, you don't volunteer.

00:10:32.700 --> 00:10:36.059
You never volunteer in the military because if you volunteer, you're screwed.

00:10:36.429 --> 00:10:44.559
Um, and you look because like if you've only if you like make a recommendation, like you're like, Oh, I have an idea, drill sergeant, they'll be like, Oh, that's great.

00:10:44.649 --> 00:10:45.570
And you can lead it.

00:10:45.610 --> 00:10:46.429
You can do it.

00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:51.490
Um, or if they were looking for, um, they like to call things a detail.

00:10:51.529 --> 00:10:56.279
So like if they need people to go pick up trash or do any sort of task, they call it a detail.

00:10:56.500 --> 00:10:59.830
They'll say, we're looking for five soldiers for a detail.

00:11:01.080 --> 00:11:01.259
Yeah.

00:11:01.259 --> 00:11:01.659
Yeah.

00:11:01.840 --> 00:11:02.129
Yeah.

00:11:02.325 --> 00:11:03.304
gets really excited and

00:11:03.330 --> 00:11:04.830
Yeah, I'm like head down, head down.

00:11:04.929 --> 00:11:06.320
You just wait to be told what to do.

00:11:06.330 --> 00:11:07.850
So learn that too.

00:11:09.235 --> 00:11:10.934
how, and how long were you in

00:11:11.019 --> 00:11:16.779
Um, I believe basic back then, remember I left, I left end of July.

00:11:16.835 --> 00:11:18.965
I think it was about almost 12 weeks.

00:11:20.325 --> 00:11:25.825
I had a little bit of like a holdover because we got to South Carolina and the drill sergeants were on vacation.

00:11:25.825 --> 00:11:27.924
They got like, they call it blackout period in the summer.

00:11:27.934 --> 00:11:32.575
So they get like two or three weeks off to kind of like go home, you know, relax before they get back to it.

00:11:32.924 --> 00:11:37.644
Um, so I, unfortunately my timing of getting there was like right during that blackout period.

00:11:37.695 --> 00:11:42.284
So I had like three weeks of where like we were in basic training, but we weren't training yet.

00:11:42.345 --> 00:11:44.044
So we were literally just working out every day.

00:11:45.304 --> 00:11:51.085
And then we started basic and I want to say I graduated right in the beginning of October.

00:11:51.095 --> 00:11:54.975
So it must have been, yeah, about two months and then, and then you go to your advanced training.

00:11:55.304 --> 00:11:58.684
So then you have, what's called AIT, which is your advanced individual training.

00:11:59.085 --> 00:11:59.985
Um, and

00:12:00.904 --> 00:12:01.254
And is that

00:12:01.264 --> 00:12:02.705
that's where you get your specialized training.

00:12:02.735 --> 00:12:09.764
Um, and so depending upon your testing before you joined, like if you do like what's called, um, you know, different, like they call it ASVAB.

00:12:10.075 --> 00:12:11.924
Um, I don't remember what it stands for.

00:12:12.629 --> 00:12:13.639
Yes, like the aptitude test.

00:12:13.879 --> 00:12:14.190
Yep.

00:12:14.240 --> 00:12:22.250
So they got kind of tells, you know, the army like what you're suitable for And then depending upon your scores, you usually you get to pick a few different options for jobs.

00:12:22.710 --> 00:12:38.240
Um, so I uh Had to change my job because the other part too is like when you're when you're negotiating your contract for money like for college money um, my first job I was supposed to be like a quartermaster like in charge of like operations, supplies, stuff like that.

00:12:38.659 --> 00:12:41.690
But I wasn't getting the college money that my recruiter promised me.

00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:44.250
So when I was reading my contract, I'm like, Whoa, time out.

00:12:44.289 --> 00:12:47.809
Like I I'm doing this for college and there's no college money.

00:12:47.820 --> 00:12:50.129
And he's like, Oh, well, whoops.

00:12:50.139 --> 00:12:50.820
Sorry.

00:12:50.850 --> 00:12:54.580
I'm like, No, I We have to go back to the table here.

00:12:54.580 --> 00:12:58.350
So we had to renegotiate and then, um, I was forced to change my job.

00:12:58.350 --> 00:13:00.490
So then I became, um, a fuel handler.

00:13:00.730 --> 00:13:04.259
So basically, um, well, it's called petroleum supply specialist.

00:13:04.570 --> 00:13:18.230
Um, so basically everything related to fuel, um, pumping gas, but like setting up actual gas stations, learning how to drive and, um, operate like the big, uh, like the big truck, like you see, like the gallon tank, 5, 000 gallon tankers.

00:13:18.625 --> 00:13:21.904
Um, Oh my God, horrible,

00:13:24.524 --> 00:13:25.634
Yeah, I can't even reverse my own

00:13:25.735 --> 00:13:27.985
but, um, yeah, so that was all my advanced training.

00:13:28.014 --> 00:13:34.125
Um, so after basic in Fort Jackson, South Carolina, I went to Fort Lee, Virginia, and that's where I did my advanced training

00:13:37.225 --> 00:13:37.934
And how

00:13:38.075 --> 00:13:38.355
there.

00:13:38.416 --> 00:13:38.895
you there?

00:13:38.895 --> 00:13:41.778
Sorry, I've got no concept of how long these things take, so

00:13:41.794 --> 00:13:42.904
no, that's okay.

00:13:43.195 --> 00:13:44.504
I think that was about eight weeks.

00:13:44.534 --> 00:13:51.534
Um, I remember, I think I, we graduated right before Christmas because then I got like a week off at Christmas before I had to report to my duty station.

00:13:51.575 --> 00:13:55.404
So yeah, so all in like July to December was all my training.

00:13:57.860 --> 00:13:59.799
And then, when you get stationed, do you have

00:14:00.014 --> 00:14:06.544
You, they, they let you pick like your top like three or five picks, like where, like what posts you want to, but you really have no control.

00:14:06.715 --> 00:14:11.335
It really comes down to your job and what units need bodies, you know.

00:14:12.605 --> 00:14:15.195
so I, I ended up in Fort Lewis, Washington.

00:14:15.750 --> 00:14:21.340
So all the way across the country, um, and you know, it's interesting.

00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:28.019
I actually like, I grew to love Seattle and that whole area because that's kind of, when I say Fort Lewis, like that's the best way to describe it is like Seattle.

00:14:28.179 --> 00:14:29.649
That's, you know, kind of the area it's at.

00:14:30.250 --> 00:14:39.159
Um, it, when I got there after the holidays, I was not aware that it like literally rains in Seattle for like, six months of the year.

00:14:39.730 --> 00:14:40.440
You've just been in where?

00:14:40.440 --> 00:14:41.100
Carolina?

00:14:41.330 --> 00:14:43.259
um, there's like no sun like ever.

00:14:43.529 --> 00:14:46.710
So I spent like the first three months like completely depressed.

00:14:46.720 --> 00:14:50.970
Like, you know, again, still isolated because like, I'm a, I'm a private in the army.

00:14:50.970 --> 00:14:52.250
I don't have a lot of friends.

00:14:52.620 --> 00:14:57.029
Um, and I'm in a new state and it's gray and dreary and rainy.

00:14:57.029 --> 00:15:05.519
Um, so it was like, that was a whole nother adjustment to make was like, living on my own as a soldier in a really depressing state, but I grew to love it.

00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:06.750
Like now I love Seattle.

00:15:06.830 --> 00:15:06.990
So,

00:15:09.184 --> 00:15:20.294
And I'm guessing that when you're in the training, you're all kind of in together, there's that, I'm guessing, I might be wrong, but there's a bit of a camaraderie, like you were saying about the bunks, and so you're kind of all in it together.

00:15:20.705 --> 00:15:28.825
And then you must get separated from a lot of the friends that you've made, sent off to somewhere completely different, and you're describing the UK in January there, it's bloody miserable.

00:15:29.615 --> 00:15:32.595
Yeah, wet, grey, depressing, yeah, horrible, horrible.

00:15:33.705 --> 00:15:38.279
Okay, so when, so At this point, you're, you're quite young still,

00:15:38.279 --> 00:15:38.519
Yeah.

00:15:38.519 --> 00:15:39.590
Now I'm like, yeah, 18,

00:15:40.169 --> 00:15:50.659
and, and so you, you've obviously, you've committed to the army, you're in, and you, you're in, um, you know, near Washington, so what happens next?

00:15:50.700 --> 00:15:50.909
When?

00:15:52.409 --> 00:15:53.110
Again, I'm

00:15:53.830 --> 00:15:54.360
No, it's okay.

00:15:54.490 --> 00:16:04.259
really ignorant, but you're primarily based in the army base, you live there, and at this point, is there any kind of whiff or sense that you might be seeing active

00:16:04.490 --> 00:16:05.740
So I was active duty.

00:16:05.740 --> 00:16:08.330
So like, um, this was, now this was all pre nine 11.

00:16:08.370 --> 00:16:10.440
So back then, you know, we were peacetime.

00:16:10.480 --> 00:16:16.120
Um, and you know, but, but you still trained as if a, you know, a combat situation could come up at any time.

00:16:16.365 --> 00:16:18.115
But honestly, like, we didn't take it serious.

00:16:18.115 --> 00:16:19.475
At least my unit, we didn't.

00:16:19.674 --> 00:16:20.634
We used to joke about it.

00:16:20.684 --> 00:16:28.384
Like, I remember, like, having to do POW training, where you learn, like, you know, what you're supposed to say, what you can and can't say to your captors and stuff like that.

00:16:28.695 --> 00:16:36.835
And we used to be like, We're never gonna get captured like there's no war, um, you know, so we like, you know, and plus again, we're all like 18, 19 year old kids.

00:16:36.865 --> 00:16:38.784
So like to us, it was like this joke.

00:16:39.115 --> 00:16:48.865
Um, and even like a lot of our trainings, you know, they, um, a lot of our trainings refer to previous battles, like Omaha beach, um, you know, and D Day and stuff like that.

00:16:48.865 --> 00:16:53.024
And so like, and they would take us through these drills just like the soldiers during World War II.

00:16:54.475 --> 00:16:59.105
it was so hard for us to relate to because, you know, it's, it's 1998, 1999.

00:16:59.485 --> 00:17:02.684
There's just, there's no concept of like something could happen to us.

00:17:03.470 --> 00:17:04.065
Um, but we.

00:17:04.950 --> 00:17:06.589
It's been, there's been a significant

00:17:06.615 --> 00:17:07.375
right, right.

00:17:07.394 --> 00:17:21.565
I mean, there had been, you know, obviously international, um, affairs that had happened where like certain, you know, parts of the army or the Marines would go like, um, Somalia in the nineties, you know, we, you know, we helped out there, but there hadn't been any major conflicts.

00:17:21.595 --> 00:17:23.224
And so we would train every day.

00:17:23.835 --> 00:17:25.605
Um, I lived on post.

00:17:25.654 --> 00:17:34.075
So like when you're a single soldier in the army, you live in what's called barracks and they're basically like big dormitories, essentially, you know, usually you have like one or two roommates.

00:17:34.470 --> 00:17:39.190
You have a shared bathroom, um, and then you have a chow hall, a cafeteria, but we call it chow halls.

00:17:39.349 --> 00:17:40.599
That's where you eat all your meals.

00:17:40.869 --> 00:17:42.349
Um, so everything's supplied to you.

00:17:42.349 --> 00:17:43.539
You have no bills.

00:17:43.579 --> 00:17:47.920
I mean, it really, looking back, um, I'm so mad at myself.

00:17:47.920 --> 00:17:52.750
I didn't save more money because like, we had no bills, like literally, like everything was covered.

00:17:52.769 --> 00:17:56.500
So whatever you made in your paychecks was just extra.

00:17:56.740 --> 00:17:57.400
And I blew it off.

00:17:57.460 --> 00:17:58.809
Like I never, I didn't save a penny.

00:17:58.950 --> 00:18:00.049
Um, and so it's like,

00:18:00.970 --> 00:18:05.170
No, but this is like when I worked and lived at home, you know, I could have probably saved for a

00:18:05.309 --> 00:18:05.440
Yeah.

00:18:05.619 --> 00:18:06.480
for somewhere, but no,

00:18:06.539 --> 00:18:06.859
Oh, yeah.

00:18:07.319 --> 00:18:07.950
We blew it off.

00:18:08.230 --> 00:18:14.410
Um, but yeah, we would, we would get up every morning and we'd work out, we'd shower, eat, go to work all day.

00:18:14.410 --> 00:18:17.650
And then sometimes you'd work out again after work and then you'd party.

00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:26.140
Like that was like, that was your life, you know, you just, and on the weekends you party pretty much from Friday night till Sunday night and then you'd get up Monday and do it all again.

00:18:26.450 --> 00:18:27.920
And then got up and, oh my god,

00:18:28.630 --> 00:18:29.240
Exactly.

00:18:29.269 --> 00:18:29.569
Yeah.

00:18:29.799 --> 00:18:30.920
There's no way I could do that now.

00:18:33.509 --> 00:18:35.099
So then, obviously,

00:18:35.549 --> 00:18:35.890
Yeah.

00:18:36.319 --> 00:18:38.000
fast forward through time a little bit.

00:18:38.230 --> 00:18:41.019
Feel free to stop me if there's anything you want to include prior to this.

00:18:41.509 --> 00:18:53.390
Um, 9 11, obviously we all know that date and we all know what a significant moment in history that was, but being in active service in America at this point and being, were you still

00:18:53.400 --> 00:18:53.819
No.

00:18:53.869 --> 00:18:54.029
So.

00:18:54.454 --> 00:19:01.505
this was a really, talk about, I don't know if you want to call it serendipity or what, but my husband, so I met my husband on active duty.

00:19:01.894 --> 00:19:05.505
Um, we got married September 11th of the year 2000.

00:19:05.934 --> 00:19:09.525
So we got married one year before 9 11 happened.

00:19:11.829 --> 00:19:12.730
Oh, so it happened on your

00:19:12.755 --> 00:19:19.914
and so we were married on September 11th, and then we both got out of the military, um, the end of July of 2001.

00:19:19.934 --> 00:19:24.785
So we left active duty, returned to Michigan, that's where my husband's from.

00:19:25.065 --> 00:19:27.615
So we returned to Michigan, and we were living in an apartment.

00:19:28.109 --> 00:19:32.730
Um, I had transitioned from active duty to what's called National Guard.

00:19:32.750 --> 00:19:40.529
So like, you know, it's still, you're still in the National Guard, you train, um, one to two weekends a month, and then a couple of weeks in the summer.

00:19:41.065 --> 00:19:52.704
And then typically, in theory, National Guard, uh, troops get deployed for, like, hurricane relief or, like, national disasters, but not normally for, like, international affairs.

00:19:52.714 --> 00:19:53.694
That's active duty.

00:19:54.355 --> 00:20:01.015
Um, so when we got off active duty, I'm like, I'm going to join the National Guard because I just, I really missed it.

00:20:01.015 --> 00:20:06.344
Like, as soon as we got home, I'm like, I still feel like I need some connection again.

00:20:06.344 --> 00:20:07.451
Um, let's see.

00:20:07.451 --> 00:20:10.035
I was just shy of my 20.

00:20:12.234 --> 00:20:13.505
First birthday, right?

00:20:13.914 --> 00:20:14.065
2001.

00:20:14.065 --> 00:20:14.434
Yeah.

00:20:14.785 --> 00:20:15.085
Yeah.

00:20:15.085 --> 00:20:16.664
So I was 20.

00:20:16.974 --> 00:20:26.825
Um, and, um, we, you know, we came home to Michigan and we were literally had the day off of work for one year at wedding anniversary when 9 11 happened.

00:20:26.855 --> 00:20:27.724
And so.

00:20:28.190 --> 00:20:29.559
We were at home with our baby.

00:20:29.559 --> 00:20:34.069
She was six months old and, um, we saw, you know, we watched everything.

00:20:35.019 --> 00:20:35.299
Oh yeah.

00:20:35.299 --> 00:20:35.390
Yeah.

00:20:35.450 --> 00:20:36.109
I had a baby too.

00:20:37.859 --> 00:20:39.299
So that's the other thing in the army.

00:20:39.299 --> 00:20:42.660
Usually like, um, couples get married and have kids really fast.

00:20:42.680 --> 00:20:45.500
Like, it's just like, I don't know why it happens, but it just does.

00:20:45.660 --> 00:20:46.089
Um,

00:20:48.025 --> 00:20:56.204
Do you think there's an element, and I'm just thinking about my other podcast here, do you think there's an element of knowing that your time potentially could be cut short because of the nature of what you do?

00:20:56.244 --> 00:20:57.464
So you're like, let's rub it, let's

00:20:57.490 --> 00:20:58.190
I think so.

00:20:58.359 --> 00:20:59.019
I think so.

00:20:59.069 --> 00:21:05.589
And it was like contagious because like when we had our daughter, I think we had like four or five friends, um, that also had kids at the exact same time.

00:21:05.599 --> 00:21:08.250
Like there was like five, yeah, there's like five female soldiers all pregnant.

00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:11.660
on base to get like just in my little by my little company.

00:21:11.990 --> 00:21:18.700
Um, and so yeah, it was like this, I don't know, feeling of like urgency, like you needed to like get your family going.

00:21:19.109 --> 00:21:20.940
Um, so yeah,

00:21:21.724 --> 00:21:29.484
And actually on that note, how do they, how did the military respond if, um, to, or did they respond back then to having pregnant women?

00:21:29.484 --> 00:21:32.525
I mean, is it something that they're a bit like, oh, for fuck's sake, you've done all the

00:21:32.740 --> 00:21:33.329
yeah, they,

00:21:33.345 --> 00:21:34.005
pregnant?

00:21:34.250 --> 00:21:34.355
And

00:21:34.549 --> 00:21:35.980
I think it depends on your unit.

00:21:36.029 --> 00:21:38.650
Um, I was lucky enough to have a female commander.

00:21:38.670 --> 00:21:40.009
So our captain was a female.

00:21:40.269 --> 00:21:41.539
Um, so that definitely helped.

00:21:41.980 --> 00:21:48.950
Um, I tried to actually keep my pregnancy quiet for a long time because I don't know, like, I just, I didn't want to be treated differently.

00:21:49.240 --> 00:21:52.329
Um, and so I didn't start showing until I was like seven months pregnant.

00:21:52.329 --> 00:22:01.464
And so, um, I finally, though, had to tell my sergeant because, um, we had to do some training that was going to require us to be around a lot of fuel.

00:22:01.835 --> 00:22:04.914
And I was like, Oh, I probably shouldn't do this, like while I'm pregnant.

00:22:04.914 --> 00:22:07.585
So I like pulled him to the side, I told him and he was so pissed.

00:22:07.595 --> 00:22:09.515
He's like, why did you wait so long to tell me?

00:22:09.595 --> 00:22:10.174
He's like, why?

00:22:10.174 --> 00:22:11.724
Because there's so much danger.

00:22:12.065 --> 00:22:13.875
Like I, you know, could have put you through like how many rips.

00:22:13.875 --> 00:22:15.055
I'm like, Oh, it's fine.

00:22:15.105 --> 00:22:16.664
I've been, you know, careful.

00:22:17.184 --> 00:22:23.275
And, um, and so, yeah, so then at that point, once like they know you're pregnant, they put you on office duty.

00:22:23.275 --> 00:22:24.984
So you are not allowed to drive trucks.

00:22:25.035 --> 00:22:27.865
You can't be out in the, what we call the motor pool and like working on trucks.

00:22:28.345 --> 00:22:30.615
Um, so I got all of us pregnant women.

00:22:30.615 --> 00:22:32.964
We were all in the office just doing office work.

00:22:33.694 --> 00:22:35.615
Um, yeah, we were benched.

00:22:35.944 --> 00:22:41.795
Um, I, I was allowed to drive buses, so I would drive like school buses for a lot of like the ROTC cadets.

00:22:42.849 --> 00:22:54.799
Honestly, that was awful because I would get like really nauseous from all like the fumes and stuff So I don't think that was any better But um, at least I got out like I didn't have to be stuck in the office But once I was once you're like a big pregnant woman in the military.

00:22:54.799 --> 00:22:57.289
Yeah, you're you're done Like there's nothing for you to do really?

00:22:57.619 --> 00:23:02.950
Um, and then once the baby, you only get like six weeks off Uh, at least at least back then.

00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:04.914
Yeah, so like I was

00:23:05.670 --> 00:23:06.460
And do they provide

00:23:06.484 --> 00:23:20.045
No, so they have daycare on base, but you have to pay for it, so you have to figure out, yeah, and back then, I remember, um, my friend, her son was in the military daycare, and I went to pick him up one day.

00:23:20.875 --> 00:23:29.644
And when I saw the conditions of these little kids, all snotty nose and they were all touching each other and I was Nope, my kid is not going to military daycare.

00:23:29.974 --> 00:23:38.505
Uh, we, yeah, I was like, we found a woman that did, you know, home daycare that wasn't affiliated with the military and she was amazing.

00:23:39.055 --> 00:23:45.595
And so we used her because I'm like, no, my kid's not coming home sick every other day, um, from daycare.

00:23:45.595 --> 00:23:48.464
But, um, yeah, I had to go back to work six weeks later.

00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:52.130
Um, and my first day back was weapons training.

00:23:52.130 --> 00:24:00.640
So I was out, um, at the gun ranges, re qualifying on my, my rifles with like my boobs full of milk, trying to like stay calm.

00:24:00.750 --> 00:24:01.059
Yeah.

00:24:01.549 --> 00:24:01.960
Yeah.

00:24:02.045 --> 00:24:02.815
the recoil.

00:24:02.984 --> 00:24:03.140
Yeah.

00:24:03.170 --> 00:24:05.660
No, nowhere to pump, nowhere to like take care of things.

00:24:05.660 --> 00:24:08.424
And I'm just like sitting there like, you know, just.

00:24:09.075 --> 00:24:10.755
Wanting to be home with my baby and I'm shooting a gun.

00:24:10.755 --> 00:24:11.355
this is safe.

00:24:13.285 --> 00:24:13.615
Yeah.

00:24:13.835 --> 00:24:14.515
It's wild.

00:24:14.765 --> 00:24:15.305
Think of it now.

00:24:15.305 --> 00:24:15.664
Yeah.

00:24:16.454 --> 00:24:16.795
Yeah.

00:24:18.184 --> 00:24:20.515
So, so take me back then.

00:24:20.595 --> 00:24:28.625
So it's your wedding anniversary, and you presumably get the news that the twin towers have collapsed.

00:24:29.055 --> 00:24:31.634
And what goes through your mind at

00:24:31.634 --> 00:24:41.664
We were watching the news and we watched it live when the second tower was hit and then when they fell and I remember just holding our daughter, you know, she was just, she wasn't even walking yet.

00:24:41.694 --> 00:24:44.875
And, um, I remember just thinking like, this is it.

00:24:44.924 --> 00:24:48.865
Like, I didn't know what was going to happen, but knew, I just joined the national guard.

00:24:48.865 --> 00:24:50.845
something, something's going to happen.

00:24:51.015 --> 00:24:53.484
And it's, it's never, nothing's ever going to be the same again.

00:24:53.904 --> 00:24:58.075
it was a while, the, the first, the rest of 2001 and 2002.

00:24:58.075 --> 00:25:04.674
As far as the military goes, it was pretty much mostly active duty soldiers that were deployed to Iraq and then well Afghanistan and then Iraq.

00:25:05.355 --> 00:25:13.115
And then we found out, my unit found out in 2002, um, we were all gonna be trained to become truck drivers.

00:25:13.835 --> 00:25:20.375
That was, they didn't tell us why, but we knew we were like, Ooh, they don't just invest all this training for nothing.

00:25:20.384 --> 00:25:21.535
Like there's something going on.

00:25:21.565 --> 00:25:26.644
So we all had to go through, um, scrap our old jobs, get new jobs as truck drivers.

00:25:27.265 --> 00:25:40.355
And then probably the summer of 2003, I feel like, or maybe the, maybe early fall of 2003, we got the call that there was a unit from the east side of Michigan that needed, they didn't have enough soldiers.

00:25:40.724 --> 00:25:42.795
So like, it's all about body count.

00:25:42.855 --> 00:25:58.835
And so like when the army, when like active duty army, Pentagon, and when they say, okay, we need this many truck drivers to go to Iraq or to go Afghanistan, they'll have like a designated unit, but then if that unit doesn't have enough bodies, they have to pull from other places.

00:25:59.305 --> 00:26:03.234
And so this unit in Michigan on the east side of Michigan, that's what happened.

00:26:03.285 --> 00:26:05.904
They were the primary unit, but then they didn't have enough people.

00:26:05.934 --> 00:26:10.595
So then they basically had a pool truck drivers from all over the state of Michigan to go with them.

00:26:11.005 --> 00:26:13.605
And so me and my buddies, we were, we got the call.

00:26:13.625 --> 00:26:14.744
We, it was voluntary.

00:26:14.795 --> 00:26:15.734
We didn't have to go.

00:26:16.200 --> 00:26:20.220
Um, but most of my platoon was going, they were like, yeah, we're going to go.

00:26:20.220 --> 00:26:20.859
We're going to do it.

00:26:20.900 --> 00:26:23.150
We just kind of, I don't want to say we wanted to get it done.

00:26:23.900 --> 00:26:25.970
At the time, the war was really early.

00:26:26.220 --> 00:26:28.589
The invasion had just happened not that long before.

00:26:28.970 --> 00:26:35.460
Um, and we were really confident that like, this was it, like, we're going to go, you know, we're going to support and then the war is going to be done.

00:26:35.589 --> 00:26:40.200
Like, you know, um, and so I went, I'm like, why not?

00:26:40.259 --> 00:26:51.140
You know, let's, cause if I don't go now, I'm And all my buddies go now, if I get called later, I'm going to be with all new people that I don't know, I don't trust, um, I don't have that camaraderie with.

00:26:53.299 --> 00:26:54.980
And I'm, is there also an element of

00:26:55.279 --> 00:26:55.750
Oh yeah.

00:26:55.970 --> 00:26:59.980
here, you know, your, your buddies are going, you don't want to let them down, why should they go and you

00:26:59.994 --> 00:27:23.285
Yeah, I, back then, the sense of nationalism and like pride in our country, um, that was probably honestly the last time I've seen like our country like unified, but not because there was, there was a lot of, um, I don't want to get too much on that soapbox, but there was a lot of racism towards people of, uh, Middle Eastern descent, um, which is really unfortunate.

00:27:23.285 --> 00:27:25.464
Uh, yeah, it was very, very unfortunate.

00:27:25.825 --> 00:27:26.984
Um, so.

00:27:28.019 --> 00:27:34.480
But I would say that for in the military, for sure, we were like ingrained, like, this is what you've trained for.

00:27:35.119 --> 00:27:36.640
This is what we had always been told.

00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:40.779
Like, if this happens, like this, you know, your job, you go to war, like, that's what you do.

00:27:40.779 --> 00:27:42.589
Um,

00:27:42.825 --> 00:27:50.125
it's making me go all kind of goosebumpy, I suppose, because I'm thinking of this 17 year old girl that went straight from high school into military training.

00:27:50.545 --> 00:28:01.204
And then you're at home with your baby, you're having, you know, a fairly, I'm not going to say a low stress life because I've had a baby, but you're living a fairly normal life, a normal existence.

00:28:01.204 --> 00:28:01.414
And.

00:28:02.684 --> 00:28:07.035
At what point do you, how, I'm picturing the conversation over the dinner table.

00:28:07.035 --> 00:28:08.765
Darling, I think I'm going to go to Iraq.

00:28:08.805 --> 00:28:09.174
Um,

00:28:09.730 --> 00:28:11.420
my husband's always been so supportive.

00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:15.700
Like he's just, you know, um, always been like, you know, you need.

00:28:16.085 --> 00:28:42.734
Like, I need to decide, like, you know, I need to do what's right, um, but with him being a, you know, a military too, like, he understood, you know what I mean, like, it was like, yeah, of course you have to go, like, this is what you've trained for, um, but it was terrifying to think of losing, leaving, leaving my daughter behind, so she was, my daughter that was at the retreat with us, um, yeah, she was, um, just, just shy of four years old, so she was like three and a half when I had to leave her.

00:28:43.490 --> 00:28:55.930
And, um, you know, trying to explain, like, I can't even, ugh, it's, like, so emotional because, like, You just can't even getting a kid that young to understand that mommy has to go away and you know,

00:28:58.615 --> 00:29:04.515
And even reassuring them that you're coming back, because in a small child's brain, like, a day is, um, could be a

00:29:04.924 --> 00:29:06.019
right, right.

00:29:06.259 --> 00:29:06.579
Yeah.

00:29:06.579 --> 00:29:08.480
And so, um, that was hard.

00:29:08.490 --> 00:29:13.740
And, um, you know, I would just tell her like, you know, mommy has to go fight the monsters.

00:29:13.779 --> 00:29:23.529
Like, I have to go make sure the monsters don't come to you, which looking back again, probably not the best thing to tell a three year old because now, right, right,

00:29:23.694 --> 00:29:27.734
in, is the alternative, I'm going to war,

00:29:28.109 --> 00:29:28.910
Exactly.

00:29:28.980 --> 00:29:29.440
Right.

00:29:29.515 --> 00:29:29.944
for them?

00:29:30.224 --> 00:29:31.555
You're using a language and a

00:29:31.779 --> 00:29:32.220
Right.

00:29:32.390 --> 00:29:32.859
Yeah.

00:29:32.980 --> 00:29:33.359
So

00:29:34.535 --> 00:29:38.285
did you know when you, when you sort of signed up to go, have any idea

00:29:38.500 --> 00:29:39.880
that we knew it would be a year.

00:29:39.890 --> 00:29:44.680
So a one year deployment, um, but that, that did not include like the, the ramp up.

00:29:44.680 --> 00:29:51.410
So we left, we got the news, I think it was like, yeah, like September ish of 2003.

00:29:51.589 --> 00:29:56.880
We had to report to how Michigan, I think right after Thanksgiving.

00:29:57.595 --> 00:30:20.990
And like, we spent like the month of December in the other side of Michigan, on the east side of Michigan, kind of just preparing, getting to know the other soldiers, kind of like, kind of like, you know, trying to get us all to get along, um, and then we got to come home for Christmas, spend a couple days with our family, and then we left for Wisconsin, which is hilarious because it was middle of winter and Wisconsin is like, brutal winters there.

00:30:21.269 --> 00:30:23.769
And so we were sent to Wisconsin to train for the desert.

00:30:23.769 --> 00:30:31.339
So we were literally training in like, I'm not even exaggerating, like the temperature there gets like negative 30 degrees sometimes.

00:30:31.369 --> 00:30:34.440
It's like, it was like freezing, like your eyelashes would be frozen.

00:30:34.829 --> 00:30:36.680
Um, I mean, like you couldn't have any sleep.

00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:37.769
Just like

00:30:37.809 --> 00:30:38.170
Yeah.

00:30:38.170 --> 00:30:44.440
And so we trained in Wisconsin from January through the end of February, so almost two full months of training.

00:30:44.849 --> 00:30:57.759
Um, but back then the war was so new, like there wasn't even really any, we were still training off of World War II tactics and strategies because the whole concept of like war in the desert was just, it was completely new.

00:30:58.529 --> 00:31:09.960
Um, and so, like, they literally were training us the way they trained the World War II soldiers, and it was completely, um, out of date, but there was no, there was no other concepts out at that time.

00:31:10.119 --> 00:31:13.099
It's completely different now, um, but yeah.

00:31:14.309 --> 00:31:16.839
And is driving through snow similar to driving through sand?

00:31:16.869 --> 00:31:17.089
Is there

00:31:17.170 --> 00:31:28.549
I mean, yes and no, um, a little bit, but really though, the weather was the worst part of it, because when we left Wisconsin, it was freezing, and we landed in Kuwait.

00:31:28.934 --> 00:31:35.694
And it was, um, you know, like the first week of March, but it was already like 70, 80 degrees there.

00:31:36.204 --> 00:31:42.384
And so like you go from like negative temperatures to like 70 and you're like heat exhaustion.

00:31:42.545 --> 00:31:43.515
Like it's so hot.

00:31:43.654 --> 00:31:49.015
Um, and then you're not used to the sun because again, Wisconsin also, there's not a lot of sun in the wintertime.

00:31:49.335 --> 00:31:54.224
Um, and so you go from like this, this dark, dreary, cold place to like the desert.

00:31:54.684 --> 00:32:00.295
overnight and it's like just oh yeah yeah yeah

00:32:00.470 --> 00:32:11.200
the leaving to go, knowing that you're not going to see your husband and your daughter for a year because that is a concept that for so many is like, shit, I don't, I don't know if I can do that.

00:32:11.660 --> 00:32:17.690
But obviously dads do it a lot because lots of dads are in certain military have jobs where they work away.

00:32:18.279 --> 00:32:18.569
And.

00:32:19.569 --> 00:32:29.460
I just, I'm just so interested to know how you protected your sort of maternal heart in this because you must have had to always compartmentalise

00:32:30.095 --> 00:32:40.105
yes you do you literally um you you have to take all of it and you just you just stuff it away and you have to do your best not like it sounds heartless but you really can't think about it.

00:32:40.990 --> 00:32:44.809
Yeah, you, you really can't because you'll, you'll, you'll drive yourself crazy.

00:32:44.829 --> 00:32:48.710
Um, and I mean, I did a lot of journaling, a lot of writing back then.

00:32:49.029 --> 00:32:51.900
Um, but even then sometimes that would make it worse.

00:32:52.359 --> 00:33:00.359
Um, and I was fortunate when I was still in Wisconsin, my husband and my daughter would come to visit because it's only like six, seven hour drive.

00:33:00.670 --> 00:33:02.630
Um, so they would, you know, come up a couple of weekends

00:33:03.710 --> 00:33:04.809
That's like the whole length of the

00:33:05.089 --> 00:33:08.049
and that's just going around Lake That's just like going around the lake.

00:33:08.759 --> 00:33:24.319
Um, but, um, so they came up a couple times, but honestly, like, it almost made it harder because, like, I would get to see them and spend the weekend being a mom again, and then they would leave, and so it was like this, like, the mental gymnastics I had to play with myself, um, was really hard.

00:33:24.319 --> 00:33:33.964
So when we finally left, Um, you know, this sounds really morbid, but you, at least I did, I wrote like my goodbye letters in case I didn't make it back.

00:33:34.535 --> 00:33:34.724
Yep.

00:33:34.734 --> 00:33:40.015
So I had one like for my husband, for my daughter, for my parents, um, you know, and you always like have those in a safe spot.

00:33:40.015 --> 00:33:48.194
So like if, if you don't make it back, like whoever's your closest soldier, like Fred would know where to, you know, get those letters out to give to your family.

00:33:48.545 --> 00:33:56.315
Um, so like once I wrote those letters and sealed the envelopes, it was like, okay, like I'm not a mom anymore.

00:33:56.335 --> 00:34:05.125
Like, I can't, I can't worry about, you know, I have to, I have to have full trust that my husband and my family are going to be able to take care of her, um, and that they're, they're going to be okay.

00:34:05.125 --> 00:34:08.715
And I just have to focus on my job and that's it.

00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:14.360
And when you were out, um, so you flew into Kuwait and then you went to

00:34:14.545 --> 00:34:15.094
Uh, Iraq.

00:34:15.219 --> 00:34:15.530
there.

00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:18.400
Uh, so, oh, oh, you went to Iraq, sorry.

00:34:18.420 --> 00:34:27.730
Um, so when you're stationed somewhere like that, and obviously we're going back quite a long time as well, so you haven't got your mobile phone, um, my dad actually covered, covered the, um, the Iraq war.

00:34:27.750 --> 00:34:28.000
So he

00:34:28.114 --> 00:34:28.605
Oh, wow.

00:34:29.715 --> 00:34:31.425
And I used to miss him terribly.

00:34:31.474 --> 00:34:35.094
And he would occasionally, very occasionally, be able to use a satellite phone.

00:34:35.094 --> 00:34:37.755
And it would be a really, really bad delay.

00:34:38.114 --> 00:34:38.945
Couldn't really hear him.

00:34:38.945 --> 00:34:41.264
But we would love to just hear his voice.

00:34:41.355 --> 00:34:42.885
And my dad was out there as a journalist.

00:34:42.945 --> 00:34:46.184
I mean, he was in some danger, but not to the same extent.

00:34:46.815 --> 00:34:48.797
Um, were you able to phone home at

00:34:48.885 --> 00:34:49.235
Yeah.

00:34:49.255 --> 00:34:59.085
So we would, um, we had like phone tents, so they had like, you know, tent set up with like multiple phones back then you still had to have pay car or a phone cards, like, you know, like, you know, like kind of like, uh, the pay ahead.

00:34:59.434 --> 00:35:00.545
Um, yeah.

00:35:00.545 --> 00:35:13.425
And so like, and it's back, I remember back then, like that was a big, that was a huge, uh, kind of like fundraiser that a lot of people did in the U S like they would, a lot of people would donate money or like buy the phone cards just to send a unit.

00:35:13.434 --> 00:35:16.474
So that way, that way we didn't have to worry about, you know, using our own money.

00:35:18.005 --> 00:35:27.405
Yeah, but usually you only got a couple minutes, you know, on the phone if you could get through because the phones, you know, like, you know, um, it wasn't always the best connection.

00:35:28.344 --> 00:35:33.304
Sometimes it would just disconnect and then you would try again and just like the phones were down.

00:35:33.364 --> 00:35:38.844
So then it's like, oh, gosh, like, then I worry about like, you know, my husband be thinking like something bad happened.

00:35:40.125 --> 00:35:40.934
One time I was.

00:35:41.969 --> 00:35:44.280
yeah, One time I was actually in Iraq.

00:35:44.590 --> 00:36:01.969
I was tied, waited in the line for like an hour, got to the phone, called my mom and then a mortar, um, a mortar shell landed on base and everything just cut out and she heard and she heard the explosion and, and then I, and then I couldn't and then I couldn't call

00:36:02.054 --> 00:36:02.184
mum.

00:36:02.260 --> 00:36:05.619
for like a couple of weeks because like the phone, like it just took, it took everything down.

00:36:06.110 --> 00:36:10.260
Um, and then we were on the road and yeah, my poor mom, like just awful.

00:36:11.264 --> 00:36:14.994
Do the military sort of like, check in at all?

00:36:14.994 --> 00:36:21.655
Again, excuse my ignorance, but, I'm thinking if that's happened on base, is there like um, like any sort of signal sent back home?

00:36:21.784 --> 00:36:22.744
No, nothing.

00:36:23.215 --> 00:36:24.045
Oh my god.

00:36:24.050 --> 00:36:24.429
Yeah.

00:36:25.304 --> 00:36:26.795
So for two weeks your mum did not

00:36:26.960 --> 00:36:27.340
Yeah.

00:36:27.349 --> 00:36:34.869
I mean, I wrote letters, you know, like, so I would write all the time, but like, even that was delayed because like mail pickup, it wasn't like, we didn't eat.

00:36:35.289 --> 00:36:36.389
We'd write our letters.

00:36:36.389 --> 00:36:40.159
We turn them into like our kind of like operations quartermaster office.

00:36:40.199 --> 00:36:40.849
But then like.

00:36:41.340 --> 00:36:48.250
You didn't know when the mail was going to get picked up and sent to Baghdad to get flown out, you know, so like a letter could take two to three weeks to get home.

00:36:48.940 --> 00:36:49.619
Um, and

00:36:50.489 --> 00:36:51.059
Did I read your letters?

00:36:51.059 --> 00:36:53.873
Mm

00:36:54.030 --> 00:36:58.039
we were, trained to be, you, you, you could never like give details.

00:36:58.179 --> 00:37:00.150
So they call it OPSEC, operational security.

00:37:00.150 --> 00:37:06.650
So like, you know, you can never, um, tell your family like the names of missions or like the names of roads.

00:37:06.920 --> 00:37:12.000
Um, you know, you were never allowed to, if, if like other people in your unit got injured.

00:37:12.670 --> 00:37:19.880
You never like told your family about that just in case like their families don't know um, But I don't know if they actually read our letters or not.

00:37:20.150 --> 00:37:24.119
I wouldn't be surprised if they did Um, but I don't have any evidence,

00:37:24.590 --> 00:37:29.170
I'm just thinking because, obviously, you're at war, aren't you, so they've got to be certain.

00:37:29.170 --> 00:37:40.800
Okay, so tell me a little bit about what it was like, um, in Iraq, because you've said, you know, about the immense heat arriving in Kuwait, and it's not going to be any cooler where you end up.

00:37:41.289 --> 00:37:45.380
So, talk to me about the base you were at, what the kind of atmosphere was

00:37:45.445 --> 00:37:50.614
So when we got to Kuwait, we were there about a week or so kind of getting just getting organized.

00:37:50.644 --> 00:37:51.885
We had to wait for our equipment.

00:37:51.885 --> 00:37:56.195
So we flew, but then all of our equipment had to get shipped over on ships.

00:37:56.275 --> 00:37:58.545
So we had to wait for all of our stuff to get over in the port.

00:37:58.894 --> 00:38:00.380
they just look

00:38:00.554 --> 00:38:04.695
during that time, a lot of soldiers were finishing up their mission.

00:38:04.735 --> 00:38:06.295
So a lot of people were leaving Iraq.

00:38:06.324 --> 00:38:08.945
And so we were at Camp Doha in Kuwait.

00:38:09.344 --> 00:38:16.125
And, um, man, you would see some of these guys and, and women that were just, just battle worn.

00:38:16.135 --> 00:38:21.195
Like their uniforms were like completely faded and they just looked haggard and tired.

00:38:21.215 --> 00:38:35.885
And I remember, um, being in line for chow behind like two guys that, you know, had just came back and they had just been told they had to go back because the war like had really, Nobody, I think really anticipated what.

00:38:36.735 --> 00:38:37.525
was going to happen.

00:38:38.045 --> 00:38:44.724
And the insurgents, you know, the insurgents were very smart and adapted very quickly to the military tactics.

00:38:44.744 --> 00:38:48.255
And so, um, the first armor division for the U.

00:38:48.255 --> 00:38:48.364
S.

00:38:48.519 --> 00:38:55.704
Army, they spent 12 months there and then they got post, they basically got extended and they had to go back for another six months.

00:38:56.525 --> 00:39:01.405
And so like, you talk about devastating, like, you know, you finish your 12 months, you're looking forward to going home.

00:39:01.414 --> 00:39:05.074
And that first year, um, that was a rough, like the invasion was a rough.

00:39:05.599 --> 00:39:07.349
year for those guys and women.

00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:14.255
Um, and so I just remember, like, they were telling us how, like, it was hell because they were infantry.

00:39:14.429 --> 00:39:16.849
And so, like, they were just, you know, telling us some of the stuff they had been through.

00:39:16.849 --> 00:39:19.260
And I'm like, oh my God, like, what are we doing?

00:39:19.809 --> 00:39:22.349
Um, and they were like, well, you're just a truck driver, so it'll be fine.

00:39:22.360 --> 00:39:25.980
Like, you're just, like, don't worry, you're not going door to door, so it won't be that bad for you.

00:39:25.980 --> 00:39:29.849
And I'm like, thanks, but I don't feel good about this.

00:39:29.880 --> 00:39:32.704
Um, and then, um, Our first mission.

00:39:32.744 --> 00:39:38.585
So we had to drive from Camp Doha to Iraq and, um, Iraq is a movie.

00:39:39.054 --> 00:39:41.054
Um, so we had to go to Northern Iraq.

00:39:41.054 --> 00:39:45.985
So like probably, uh, Anaconda, which is considerable, a lot of Iraq.

00:39:46.195 --> 00:39:47.635
It's, um, Northern.

00:39:48.804 --> 00:39:52.855
I believe on a normal day, there was just an average, not a war.

00:39:53.454 --> 00:39:55.195
It should be like a five hour drive.

00:39:55.195 --> 00:39:55.804
I think.

00:39:56.114 --> 00:39:57.925
Um, yeah, it took us like 24 hours.

00:39:58.164 --> 00:39:59.724
Um, because we.

00:40:00.139 --> 00:40:02.409
So we had to take back the first armored division.

00:40:02.440 --> 00:40:06.079
So we had to load up all these tanks onto our, our truck trailers.

00:40:06.800 --> 00:40:08.409
With the soldiers in their tanks.

00:40:08.630 --> 00:40:12.250
So we had to take the tanker men with their tanks back to Iraq.

00:40:12.280 --> 00:40:13.769
So they were, they were pissed off.

00:40:14.889 --> 00:40:21.960
Um, they were really bitter and like, I don't think they meant to like be angry at us, but they were angry at us because here we are like the greenies.

00:40:22.030 --> 00:40:22.340
Yeah.

00:40:22.340 --> 00:40:23.199
You know, we're all like.

00:40:23.784 --> 00:40:24.505
Happy to help.

00:40:24.514 --> 00:40:25.385
Happy to be here.

00:40:25.394 --> 00:40:27.815
And they're like, you have no idea what you're in for.

00:40:28.164 --> 00:40:32.434
Um, we made it maybe a couple hours into Iraq.

00:40:32.465 --> 00:40:36.195
Um, the first couple hours, it's southern Iraq is like just a vast desert.

00:40:36.344 --> 00:40:37.715
It's just a vast desert.

00:40:38.144 --> 00:40:44.465
And it's wild because as you're driving up the main road, which back then it was called, we called it MSR Sword.

00:40:44.775 --> 00:40:47.465
Um, so MSR stands for Main Supply Route.

00:40:47.784 --> 00:41:06.454
Um, so MSR soared and, um, there were still blown up vehicles from the Gulf War, like in the sand and like, it was just like this, like just miles and miles of desert with all these old, just blown up vehicles, and it was just like, so spooky and like.

00:41:07.614 --> 00:41:08.125
it was.

00:41:08.155 --> 00:41:08.434
it was.

00:41:08.434 --> 00:41:09.465
very dystopian.

00:41:09.804 --> 00:41:14.074
Um, and a lot of times the road, the sand would just blow over the road.

00:41:14.074 --> 00:41:15.545
So you couldn't even see the road anymore.

00:41:15.545 --> 00:41:19.494
So you're just driving straight and you're like, I hope I'm on the road still.

00:41:19.505 --> 00:41:21.855
Like there's a truck in front of me, so I'm just going to keep driving.

00:41:22.244 --> 00:41:23.954
Um, we were just south of,

00:41:24.849 --> 00:41:25.539
nobody wants to be the

00:41:25.635 --> 00:41:26.434
wants to be in the front truck.

00:41:26.454 --> 00:41:33.855
And, uh, we were just south of Baghdad and there was, the problem was they had sent so many people into Iraq that day.

00:41:34.380 --> 00:41:36.409
Like there were, they call them, we call them convoys.

00:41:36.460 --> 00:41:44.219
Like that's what, you know, when your trucks are driving, um, there were so many convoys that it was like this, like just long traffic jam on this one road.

00:41:44.250 --> 00:41:48.630
And so the insurgents were like, Oh, they're sitting ducks.

00:41:48.659 --> 00:41:54.210
And so they just started just pinging, like just randomly you'd have, you'd hear small arms fire.

00:41:54.710 --> 00:41:57.599
You know, and again, this is our first day.

00:41:57.630 --> 00:41:59.039
So we're like on super alert.

00:41:59.539 --> 00:42:02.000
We get stopped and we're stopped for like ever.

00:42:02.030 --> 00:42:03.980
So we get out, we're pulling security.

00:42:04.934 --> 00:42:09.315
We get going, you go a couple miles, you stop again, and we had our first attack.

00:42:09.335 --> 00:42:18.255
And so we had our first, um, RPG, which is like a rocket, rocket propelled grenade, um, that hit one of our trucks and we had a soldier get hit.

00:42:18.650 --> 00:42:23.079
And so we had our first injury and we weren't even, we weren't even in Iraq 24 hours.

00:42:23.239 --> 00:42:24.219
We already had one guy down.

00:42:24.380 --> 00:42:25.889
We were like, Oh my God,

00:42:27.369 --> 00:42:27.489
And

00:42:27.519 --> 00:42:28.139
he survived.

00:42:28.199 --> 00:42:31.400
Um, and we used to joke, we, uh, that's army.

00:42:31.409 --> 00:42:33.289
We tend to like joke really sickly with each other.

00:42:33.289 --> 00:42:35.500
He got, uh, he took shrapnel to like his behind.

00:42:35.500 --> 00:42:39.619
So like, um, we, you know, yeah, he never lived that down.

00:42:40.559 --> 00:42:41.130
Fun at Metal

00:42:41.519 --> 00:42:44.280
Um, and, uh, yeah, but he survived.

00:42:44.320 --> 00:42:49.030
Um, but it was like, Oh shit, like this, This is real.

00:42:49.070 --> 00:42:49.510
Yeah.

00:42:49.809 --> 00:42:52.489
Um, and everybody, you're always paired up.

00:42:52.840 --> 00:42:54.380
You're always paired up with a battle buddy.

00:42:54.590 --> 00:43:00.340
And so, um, my battle buddy, Shane, he was what we call a gunner.

00:43:00.369 --> 00:43:02.960
So he was on one of the gun tracks with his, his machine gun.

00:43:03.599 --> 00:43:08.690
So I had another, uh, soldier with me for the day and he was young.

00:43:08.719 --> 00:43:10.889
Like I was only 23.

00:43:11.300 --> 00:43:13.010
He was, I think, barely 18.

00:43:13.050 --> 00:43:17.510
He was like just a kid and he was like, he wanted to be brave.

00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:19.175
He was brave, but like, he was terrified.

00:43:19.860 --> 00:43:27.650
And so, and in fact, like, before we had left, like, I had promised his mom, because his mom was, like, so terrified of him leaving, and she's like, please let my boy come home.

00:43:27.650 --> 00:43:30.630
And I'm like, I will do everything in my power to make sure he comes home.

00:43:31.070 --> 00:43:33.980
Um, and we were both, like, we were sweating, man.

00:43:33.989 --> 00:43:34.480
We were.

00:43:34.880 --> 00:43:35.639
It was scary.

00:43:35.690 --> 00:43:36.349
I'm not gonna lie.

00:43:36.719 --> 00:43:40.710
Um, and we just, just had to stay focused.

00:43:40.710 --> 00:43:43.170
And I'm like, you know, the one point he was really freaking out.

00:43:43.179 --> 00:43:48.420
I'm like, dude, I'm like, like, you just gotta, I'm like, just snap out of

00:43:48.519 --> 00:43:52.389
And that must be, and that in itself must be scary.

00:43:52.400 --> 00:43:53.949
The person that you're with is kind of

00:43:54.099 --> 00:43:54.570
Yeah.

00:43:55.750 --> 00:43:57.719
You don't want to draw attention to yourselves.

00:43:57.780 --> 00:43:59.750
You, you need the person with you to be calm.

00:43:59.789 --> 00:44:05.900
And so in a, I guess in a way it might have helped to calm you because sometimes when you've got to take care of somebody else, you put your

00:44:06.019 --> 00:44:06.579
Yes.

00:44:06.639 --> 00:44:06.889
Yeah.

00:44:06.920 --> 00:44:09.820
It's like, almost like the mom, like the mom mode kind of kicked in, you know?

00:44:09.989 --> 00:44:17.400
And it was almost like, okay, he's, I'm just going to treat him like he's my baby and like, gonna have to like, take care of him and take care of me and keep us alive.

00:44:18.090 --> 00:44:18.440
Yeah.

00:44:19.894 --> 00:44:25.474
And if, again, ignorant about the army, but if you at this point went, No, this is not for me.

00:44:25.514 --> 00:44:25.914
I want to go

00:44:25.960 --> 00:44:26.409
Yeah.

00:44:26.769 --> 00:44:36.570
I mean, you, you have to, uh, There were a few people that, um, had to prove they were mentally not there, like mentally insane.

00:44:36.969 --> 00:44:41.829
Um, but the problem is when you do stuff like that in the military, you get, you get medically discharged.

00:44:42.239 --> 00:44:50.280
Um, normally you, you usually get an honorable discharge, but like the thought of quitting was like so shameful to me.

00:44:50.280 --> 00:44:53.230
Like, there was just like, there was like, that wasn't even a consideration.

00:44:53.440 --> 00:44:53.719
Like,

00:44:55.360 --> 00:45:02.539
I'm guessing that's something that's kind of hammered home very early on in your training because otherwise you'd have everybody would walk up

00:45:02.614 --> 00:45:03.574
Yeah, exactly.

00:45:03.784 --> 00:45:04.114
Yeah.

00:45:04.414 --> 00:45:06.394
You don't, you don't complain about being sick.

00:45:06.394 --> 00:45:07.925
You don't complain when you're injured.

00:45:07.925 --> 00:45:10.295
You don't complain when you're sad or scared.

00:45:10.295 --> 00:45:15.804
Like you just, you know, when they say like, you just drive on like you soldier on, like, that's what it means.

00:45:15.804 --> 00:45:19.005
Like you, yeah, You just do what you gotta do and you don't complain.

00:45:19.565 --> 00:45:28.344
So, um, which looking back too, like as, uh, a veteran has made it so hard to accept help now because.

00:45:28.724 --> 00:45:32.704
It's so hard to like, say, okay, I am, I am messed up.

00:45:32.704 --> 00:45:33.405
I do need help.

00:45:33.735 --> 00:45:40.554
Um, because you're just, you're so ingrained to think, I don't, I don't need anybody to help me because I'm a soldier, I'm tough.

00:45:41.264 --> 00:45:41.574
Yeah.

00:45:41.574 --> 00:45:42.565
Mm hmm.

00:45:43.280 --> 00:45:52.284
Now, You mentioned there that, that you did need some help, um, and I'm just wondering whether you would be comfortable telling me a little bit about what led you, because I, I know that you

00:45:52.425 --> 00:45:53.324
Mm hmm.

00:45:54.034 --> 00:45:55.974
which is not uncommon in veterans.

00:45:56.835 --> 00:45:57.014
Mm

00:45:57.144 --> 00:46:02.275
in widows, so there's a parallel there, um, and PTSD is often the edit.

00:46:02.275 --> 00:46:02.414
Okay.

00:46:03.860 --> 00:46:08.219
so if you're comfortable doing so, if you would just tell me a little bit about what, uh, what happened next

00:46:08.385 --> 00:46:08.764
Yeah.

00:46:08.775 --> 00:46:12.695
So after that first day, um, it never let up.

00:46:12.724 --> 00:46:20.625
every day we were, once we got to our camp, we literally dropped off our gear and the very next day we were back on the road doing missions.

00:46:21.130 --> 00:46:37.889
And it was nonstop because our, our job as truck drivers was to deliver supplies to specifically the Marines, but also a lot of our infantry units that were like at these smaller camps, um, because a lot of the airstrips in Iraq were completely blown up.

00:46:37.920 --> 00:46:42.969
So, the only way to get goods to everybody was driving them.

00:46:43.489 --> 00:46:48.780
Um, and so we became the targets for the insurgents again, the, the insurgents, like, they.

00:46:48.789 --> 00:46:48.809
Yeah.

00:46:49.199 --> 00:46:50.519
We're always a step ahead.

00:46:51.440 --> 00:46:54.900
Um, you know, we, we invaded their country, so like they didn't want us there.

00:46:54.940 --> 00:46:57.460
And so, um, they were always a step ahead.

00:46:57.480 --> 00:47:02.269
And so once they realized that, Oh, all these trucks driving, they've got all the goods.

00:47:02.349 --> 00:47:07.500
If we take them down, we're, we're, everybody else is just at a standstill.

00:47:07.920 --> 00:47:19.550
Um, and so when I say every day we were attacked every day, every mission, we were either getting hit with small arms, fire, uh, roadside bombs, IEDs, um, RPGs, mortars.

00:47:20.184 --> 00:47:26.425
Every single day now we didn't get injured every day, but we would have trucks get blown up the first couple weeks.

00:47:26.425 --> 00:47:27.315
It was a lot of close calls.

00:47:27.985 --> 00:47:32.724
So, um, leading up to May 25th, which was I'll get to that in a second.

00:47:32.735 --> 00:47:40.545
But leading up to that, like, my truck, I was driving, um, we started hearing small arms fire and all of a sudden a bullet just flies by my face.

00:47:40.594 --> 00:47:42.894
Like, I literally feel it right in front of my face.

00:47:43.255 --> 00:47:50.755
And then the guy that was with me, um, Noah, he's like, we both look at each other and we're like, Oh my God, we felt it.

00:47:50.835 --> 00:47:52.065
Jesus.

00:47:52.074 --> 00:47:52.784
So literally, you

00:47:53.175 --> 00:47:53.574
Yes.

00:47:53.625 --> 00:47:58.045
And then, And we, and the truck was hit because we could feel, we could hear the pinging off our truck.

00:47:58.380 --> 00:48:16.150
So once we finally got to our stop, you know, we're, we're assessing the damage and a bullet had went straight through the gas tank because the gas tanks on, on semi trucks are these huge like barrels, you know, on the, on the bottom of your truck, we had a bullet hole straight through it, which thank goodness our, our gas tank had been like a little under half full.

00:48:16.574 --> 00:48:20.954
Uh, because we didn't, it, it hit towards the top where there was no gas.

00:48:20.954 --> 00:48:22.704
There was, yeah, it was wild.

00:48:22.704 --> 00:48:25.514
So that was like the first really big, Oh shit moment.

00:48:25.824 --> 00:48:28.704
Uh, that was like, okay.

00:48:28.735 --> 00:48:31.215
And then, you know, if it wasn't our, go ahead.

00:48:31.224 --> 00:48:39.889
And what, sorry, I've just got to ask this, but what does it feel like to be in this armoured vehicle when there are bullets flying around?

00:48:40.579 --> 00:48:43.639
literally hitting the thing you're in and you have to just

00:48:44.349 --> 00:48:44.534
Yeah.

00:48:44.614 --> 00:48:45.425
You just keep driving.

00:48:45.829 --> 00:48:46.250
Yeah.

00:48:46.340 --> 00:48:46.820
Yeah, we don't.

00:48:46.929 --> 00:48:49.949
So our job as truck drivers was just to get to our destination.

00:48:50.219 --> 00:48:54.530
So we were always told the infantry will come in like we, we obviously would suppress fire.

00:48:54.559 --> 00:48:56.050
So we would, we would fire back.

00:48:56.300 --> 00:49:06.559
So like, sometimes like if you're driving, like I would have one hand on the wheel and I'd have my, my rifle over my left arm balancing, pulling the trigger as I'm driving down the road.

00:49:06.739 --> 00:49:09.119
And, but there's no, I mean, you're not, there's no way to aim.

00:49:09.119 --> 00:49:09.719
Like, you know what I mean?

00:49:09.719 --> 00:49:11.449
Like your, your bullets are just spraying without.

00:49:12.010 --> 00:49:12.389
Yeah.

00:49:12.755 --> 00:49:21.355
Um, and then whoever's in the passenger seat, obviously they can be a little bit more strategic, um, but you know, you're Driving um,

00:49:21.539 --> 00:49:21.809
shoot.

00:49:21.849 --> 00:49:22.230
I mean,

00:49:22.715 --> 00:49:28.735
but yeah, and you don't have any clue if you're actually hitting a target or not.

00:49:28.784 --> 00:49:29.795
And so that was our mission.

00:49:29.795 --> 00:49:31.485
Our mission was just keep driving.

00:49:32.034 --> 00:49:37.905
Get out of Dodge, let the infantry come in afterwards, the recon units, they'll come in and they'll clean up the mess.

00:49:38.065 --> 00:49:39.534
You know, that's, that's their job.

00:49:40.175 --> 00:49:41.824
Um, so that was just what we did.

00:49:41.855 --> 00:49:43.175
And, um, but it's wild.

00:49:43.215 --> 00:49:43.425
Like it.

00:49:44.715 --> 00:49:53.755
It's just like weird adrenaline rush, uh, and you just, you're constantly in fight, like you're just constantly in fight mode.

00:49:53.775 --> 00:50:06.934
There is no, I mean, I guess in a way flight mode because you are driving away from it, but you're just constantly at this like heightened sense of like on edge and just not knowing when the next bullet is going to come, you know, when you're going to hear the next,

00:50:07.789 --> 00:50:09.429
And your only option is fight, isn't it?

00:50:09.429 --> 00:50:09.690
Because

00:50:09.750 --> 00:50:10.820
Right, right.

00:50:11.409 --> 00:50:14.929
So, and gosh, yeah, I'm thinking of your

00:50:15.130 --> 00:50:15.769
Oh, yeah.

00:50:15.900 --> 00:50:17.250
Oh, just through the roof.

00:50:17.539 --> 00:50:18.329
Yeah, for sure.

00:50:18.400 --> 00:50:18.809
Yeah.

00:50:21.840 --> 00:50:23.860
Okay, so tell me now what happened

00:50:24.159 --> 00:50:26.800
So May 25th, um, we were on a return trip.

00:50:26.949 --> 00:50:33.130
We were, um, for probably a couple weeks we had been going to the west side of Iraq to like just north of Fallujah.

00:50:33.659 --> 00:50:49.045
This was in, um, Like April and May of 2004 was when it was really heating up in Fallujah, and we were getting ready for like the big attacks in Fallujah, uh, because at the time that's where a lot of the insurgents were staying, and so the Marines were getting ready to like just lock down that city.

00:50:49.335 --> 00:50:53.644
So we were We have been constantly bringing more and more supplies to the Marines.

00:50:53.894 --> 00:50:57.664
Um, there was another town right above Fallujah called Al Tiqadam.

00:50:57.934 --> 00:50:58.835
We call it TQ.

00:50:59.005 --> 00:51:02.014
Um, so we would go back and forth to TQ all the time.

00:51:02.695 --> 00:51:16.375
And, um, the easiest way to get to TQ was to like, basically like, uh, Iraq, you know, has like the Tigris and Euphrates river that kind of come down the middle of the, I don't want to say the middle, but kind of the center of the country.

00:51:16.849 --> 00:51:22.429
Um, going through Baghdad usually is the easiest way to get like up and around to go to Fallujah.

00:51:23.250 --> 00:51:25.940
Um, however, Baghdad was like awful.

00:51:25.960 --> 00:51:27.789
Like it was just very, very dangerous.

00:51:27.809 --> 00:51:34.150
And so a lot of times we'd have to go north, which was a super long drive, um, but also had its own dangers.

00:51:35.494 --> 00:51:42.405
That day, uh, we were, we were cleared to go through Baghdad, but we were supposed to stop at the airport.

00:51:42.514 --> 00:51:45.974
So the Baghdad International Airport, we had, the army had took that over.

00:51:45.974 --> 00:51:47.800
So the airport was, was an army base.

00:51:48.505 --> 00:51:58.554
And when the city was too dangerous to drive through, a lot of times we would enter the airport and you kind of like, I mean, Baghdad airport is a huge airport, um, massive.

00:51:58.934 --> 00:52:04.494
Um, so we basically would like drive through all of the streets of the airport to kind of cut across the other side of Baghdad.

00:52:06.239 --> 00:52:09.099
On that day, uh, I found this out later.

00:52:09.099 --> 00:52:12.059
I didn't know it at the time the truck I was driving.

00:52:12.190 --> 00:52:15.030
Um, I was we were the first truck.

00:52:15.349 --> 00:52:17.659
Uh, so when we talked about like you never want to be the first truck.

00:52:18.539 --> 00:52:25.614
Well, I I didn't want to at first, but then I realized I'd rather be the beginning of a convoy than stuck in the middle.

00:52:26.355 --> 00:52:32.485
Because at least then I felt like I just had a little bit more, I don't want to say freedom, but like I'm leading the charge.

00:52:32.514 --> 00:52:32.885
Yeah.

00:52:33.235 --> 00:52:36.715
So we had, we had our gun truck one and then I was the first semi truck.

00:52:37.675 --> 00:52:43.175
So we, our lieutenant told us we're not going through the airport, we're going through the city, we're cleared.

00:52:43.175 --> 00:52:44.425
That's what we were told.

00:52:45.324 --> 00:52:54.425
So we're going through our route and we get stopped because there is another potential roadside bomb up ahead that is being cleared.

00:52:54.889 --> 00:53:31.460
Okay, so we stop we're pulling security and I'll never forget my battle buddy the machine gunner Um, he was with me on this mission when we were pulling security he walks away and he like go and he's looking at a ditch and i'm yelling at him like get your butt over here like That's not our job like stay with the truck like, you know We gotta get ready to go and i'll just never forget that because less than five minutes later we get going and um The highway system in Iraq is very similar to, um, the US, um, where, you know, like, you've got, like, three or four lane highways, and then you have your ramps that take you, like, up a ramp to a bridge.

00:53:32.039 --> 00:53:45.860
So, we were on this, like, highway, three lanes, and we have to get onto a ramp to go up a bridge, but there's, you know, another ramp coming onto the highway, you know, because you have, like, your entrance and exits.

00:53:46.320 --> 00:53:49.980
So, as we are getting On the ramp, I'll never forget.

00:53:49.980 --> 00:53:53.869
I saw this little car and I made like the guy driving it.

00:53:54.000 --> 00:53:55.139
We looked at each other.

00:53:56.159 --> 00:54:02.960
And then the next thing I know, we're going up the ramp and we're about halfway up the ramp and just the loudest explosion.

00:54:03.570 --> 00:54:07.550
Like, I've ever experienced goes off to the to the right side.

00:54:07.710 --> 00:54:10.210
So, like, there was like a chain link fence, you know, like, um.

00:54:12.119 --> 00:54:19.340
And so I don't know, we don't know to this day if it was like a bomb planted on the fence or if it was an RPG.

00:54:19.730 --> 00:54:23.940
Um, but an explosion went off, hit my truck.

00:54:24.469 --> 00:54:27.059
The whole impact came into the, from the side window.

00:54:27.739 --> 00:54:29.780
My battle buddy, um, lost his eye.

00:54:30.199 --> 00:54:31.260
Didn't know it at the time.

00:54:31.579 --> 00:54:33.690
Um, but everything went black.

00:54:33.889 --> 00:54:44.119
It was just like the most deafening sound, but also the, the darkest black I've ever encountered all at the same time, and I'm still driving and I'm going up the ramp.

00:54:44.570 --> 00:54:52.650
And so, um, you know, I don't, I've likely probably lost conscious for consciousness for a couple seconds.

00:54:52.670 --> 00:54:53.789
I don't, I really don't know.

00:54:53.840 --> 00:54:57.739
You know, there's like, there's like this, like probably 10 to 20 seconds of my life.

00:54:57.789 --> 00:54:58.429
Like, and it seems.

00:54:58.880 --> 00:55:01.989
Like a really short amount of time, but it was really long too.

00:55:02.039 --> 00:55:04.059
Like it's weird to explain.

00:55:04.469 --> 00:55:17.869
Um, But I the one thing I remember was that the first thing I realized I could feel the truck I was holding on to the steering wheel That was the first sense that came back to me was like I felt the truck like kind of like shaking But I couldn't see anything.

00:55:18.139 --> 00:55:32.405
I couldn't hear anything And then the the next thing was the cloud of smoke kind of started clearing, but I still couldn't hear anything And I look over and my buddy is just, I mean, not to be too like graphic, but he's just his whole, I mean, his entire face is just, it's all blood.

00:55:32.465 --> 00:55:34.614
Like I have no, I can't tell what's wrong with them.

00:55:35.195 --> 00:55:41.275
And, you know, he's like fumbling around and, um, it was awful.

00:55:41.275 --> 00:55:44.364
And I can't hear though, like I can't freaking hear him.

00:55:44.585 --> 00:55:45.755
And so I just keep driving.

00:55:47.034 --> 00:55:53.295
And I get to the top of the ramp onto the bridge and the truck starts like sputtering and I'm like, oh my God, like, are you fucking kidding me?

00:55:53.344 --> 00:55:55.804
Like, I think I'm gonna lose the truck.

00:55:55.994 --> 00:56:00.184
Like, I know, so I drive it as far as I can because I have a 40 foot trailer attached.

00:56:01.085 --> 00:56:03.894
So, you know, I'm in the semi truck with a 40 foot trailer.

00:56:04.965 --> 00:56:10.724
Get the truck all the way up onto the bridge because again, there's like, I don't know, 20, 30 trucks behind me.

00:56:11.735 --> 00:56:19.335
So at this point I can kind of hear, I hear him like moaning, but like, I just, I'm not coherent.

00:56:19.364 --> 00:56:25.644
Like I'm not registering things and I grabbed the radio and like calling in, I'm like, we've been hit.

00:56:25.695 --> 00:56:36.465
Like as if they didn't know, like if the rest of the unit didn't see it and I'm trying to call in a medevac, uh, which, you know, we have our training on like, we know the order of how you're supposed to say things.

00:56:36.840 --> 00:56:42.019
But, um, my guys told me later that, like, I wasn't even, like, making coherent sense.

00:56:42.039 --> 00:56:45.340
Like, the word, like, I was just, it was like, I was jumbling all my words.

00:56:45.400 --> 00:56:49.369
So I definitely, like, had some sort of, you know, trauma, um, from the explosion.

00:56:49.710 --> 00:56:50.150
Yeah.

00:56:50.449 --> 00:56:57.349
And, um, so, you know, I radio it in and then I'm like, I gotta get him out because I can't, I don't know what's wrong with him.

00:56:57.349 --> 00:57:01.159
I just see all this blood and he had kind of collapsed in my lap.

00:57:01.159 --> 00:57:01.789
And I'm like, okay.

00:57:01.789 --> 00:57:02.989
I'm like, I'm like, I'm gonna get you out.

00:57:03.019 --> 00:57:03.820
I'm gonna get you out.

00:57:03.829 --> 00:57:04.510
And he's like.

00:57:05.670 --> 00:57:05.860
I don't know.

00:57:05.860 --> 00:57:07.300
He's like over six feet tall.

00:57:07.309 --> 00:57:09.489
He's a tall dude and I'm only five, six.

00:57:09.500 --> 00:57:20.440
So like I start to get out and I'm trying to help him, but he's got to climb over the seat because I couldn't go around and get him out because I parked so close to the bridge.

00:57:20.460 --> 00:57:21.530
I couldn't open his door.

00:57:21.960 --> 00:57:27.630
So I had to pull him through from the passenger seat to the driver's seat and then get him down onto the ground.

00:57:28.050 --> 00:57:31.030
And then we basically just kind of collapsed on the road truck.

00:57:31.059 --> 00:57:33.489
The rest of the units driving by, they're just leaving us.

00:57:33.500 --> 00:57:33.519
Yeah.

00:57:34.250 --> 00:57:39.519
Um, because that was their, that's also part of our training was like, you just go, you don't stop.

00:57:39.550 --> 00:57:44.769
And so I'm just like holding him and I had a, my canteen of water, I'm pouring water on his face.

00:57:44.960 --> 00:57:46.619
I'm like, I got to figure out what's wrong with him.

00:57:46.650 --> 00:57:54.869
And that's when I see, you know, the, the devastation to his eye, um, it was still kind of hanging on, but we, we ended up losing it.

00:57:55.190 --> 00:57:58.269
Um, and you know, it was pretty, it was pretty horrendous.

00:57:58.340 --> 00:58:05.869
It was probably like the worst, Like goriness i've ever seen like firsthand and at the time his he was so he was young too.

00:58:05.900 --> 00:58:22.769
He was 18 or 19 He had got married before we left and his wife was expecting their first baby And you know all he just he just kept mumbling like my son my son i'm, never gonna see my son and i'm trying to like i'm cradling him and then i'm like Flagging people down and finally one of the trucks.

00:58:22.800 --> 00:58:31.065
Um We're here our medic comes running up because You While this is all happening with me and him, more explosions happened.

00:58:31.094 --> 00:58:31.815
So this was a setup.

00:58:31.965 --> 00:58:32.954
This was an ambush.

00:58:33.534 --> 00:58:37.655
And I'm, I am convinced to this day that the guy I saw in that car was a spotter.

00:58:37.715 --> 00:58:42.125
Like, because the way we locked eyes for that split second, I'll never forget that.

00:58:42.445 --> 00:58:45.635
Um, and so there was two more explosions.

00:58:45.664 --> 00:58:47.105
Thankfully, nobody got hurt.

00:58:47.105 --> 00:58:50.204
Caused this whole traffic jam on, on the ramp.

00:58:50.224 --> 00:58:51.565
Everybody was like kind of stuck.

00:58:52.050 --> 00:58:57.650
And so the medic, um, came running up and, um, he, you know, helps me kind of assess him.

00:58:57.650 --> 00:59:02.119
He's like, okay, you know, he's, he literally gets in front of one of the trucks driving and is like, stop.

00:59:02.170 --> 00:59:04.519
And then we get, we get Shane into the truck.

00:59:04.889 --> 00:59:07.219
Um, and then I go back to my truck.

00:59:07.219 --> 00:59:08.199
I get all of our gear.

00:59:08.210 --> 00:59:10.130
Cause that's the other part of your training kicks in.

00:59:10.139 --> 00:59:11.900
Like you can't leave anything secure behind.

00:59:11.900 --> 00:59:14.449
So take all your weapons, take your ammo, take your radio.

00:59:14.869 --> 00:59:17.860
Um, I left our sleeping gear, but I just took all the important stuff.

00:59:18.170 --> 00:59:19.869
Um, cause that's the one thing you don't want.

00:59:20.449 --> 00:59:23.690
If you have, because we knew we had to leave the truck there because it was, it was disabled.

00:59:24.010 --> 00:59:32.690
Um, and so I just grab everything and I just jump in another truck and we drive up the road to kind of like regroup basically.

00:59:32.730 --> 00:59:36.150
And you know, basically get him, um, stable

00:59:36.159 --> 00:59:36.722
we

00:59:36.940 --> 00:59:38.369
to wait for a helicopter to come in.

00:59:38.369 --> 00:59:42.980
So we had to wait for a helicopter to fly in, pick him up and then we were able to keep going.

00:59:43.490 --> 00:59:44.054
helicopter

00:59:44.239 --> 00:59:44.550
So

00:59:44.617 --> 00:59:45.746
come in.

00:59:45.746 --> 00:59:51.385
We had to wait for a helicopter to fly in,

00:59:51.840 --> 00:59:52.000
yeah.

00:59:52.512 --> 00:59:54.768
up, sit him down,

00:59:54.885 --> 00:59:57.114
Yeah, and he, yeah.

00:59:57.824 --> 01:00:01.215
Oh, yeah, he ended up he, um, he doesn't have a lot of recollection.

01:00:01.224 --> 01:00:01.525
So

01:00:02.427 --> 01:00:05.362
yeah.

01:00:05.405 --> 01:00:06.775
a great life now.

01:00:06.974 --> 01:00:11.605
Um, but, uh, he, he flatlined on the plane to Germany.

01:00:11.724 --> 01:00:14.894
He flatlined on the helicopter ride back to Baghdad.

01:00:15.539 --> 01:00:20.400
And then I believe he also had a couple serious altercations on the flight from Baghdad to Germany.

01:00:20.809 --> 01:00:32.610
Um, and I know he's shared and it's, um, you know, pretty hard for him, but, um, he has very vague memories of being on the plane to Germany.

01:00:32.630 --> 01:00:37.920
They were just like all the soldiers, all the injured soldiers, they're just like stacked like in bunks, you're just strapped down.

01:00:37.980 --> 01:00:45.150
And like he was blind because even though he, he still had one eye, but like when you have a, an injury to an eye, usually your other eye will swell up.

01:00:45.150 --> 01:00:45.210
Yeah.

01:00:45.644 --> 01:00:46.735
So you can't see at all.

01:00:46.775 --> 01:00:49.704
It's like a, it's like a, it's almost like a natural defense mechanism.

01:00:49.704 --> 01:00:54.545
So your one, your good eye will like shut down because yes.

01:00:54.574 --> 01:00:55.625
And so he couldn't see at all.

01:00:55.644 --> 01:00:58.065
So he was completely blind for a couple of days.

01:00:58.405 --> 01:01:02.065
And so like, yeah, I mean, I can't even imagine how terrified he was.

01:01:02.105 --> 01:01:08.094
Uh, and not, it is not even knowing, I mean, it took, it took a long time.

01:01:09.494 --> 01:01:16.875
Well, it was a good couple more months before I got to talk to him and kind of start recounting what happened.

01:01:17.369 --> 01:01:21.440
And to this day, like, you know, like my memories are so different from his memories.

01:01:21.480 --> 01:01:23.550
And so he'll be like, no, no, no, that didn't happen like that.

01:01:23.570 --> 01:01:24.409
And I'm like, it did.

01:01:24.440 --> 01:01:29.079
I'm like, it's just that you're a little bit more disjointed because of what happened.

01:01:29.710 --> 01:01:31.659
Um, but yeah,

01:01:32.449 --> 01:01:37.949
And after this has happened, do, are you offered, um, discharge from the, from the military at

01:01:38.489 --> 01:01:38.820
no.

01:01:38.860 --> 01:01:44.730
So I, so when we got him to safety, um, I didn't even know if I was injured.

01:01:44.809 --> 01:01:46.650
I hadn't even checked myself or anything.

01:01:46.739 --> 01:01:52.059
And so I was sitting there pulling security while we're waiting for the helicopters to get him and I'm covered in blood.

01:01:52.090 --> 01:01:53.510
Like, I mean, just drenched.

01:01:53.905 --> 01:01:57.494
And somebody's like, we got to check you out because, you know, were you injured?

01:01:57.494 --> 01:01:58.394
I'm like, no, I'm fine.

01:01:58.394 --> 01:01:58.925
I'm fine.

01:01:58.954 --> 01:02:05.454
Well, I had taken shrapnel to like, not a lot, but just like little pieces, like they kind of peppered all in my head and my neck and ear.

01:02:05.815 --> 01:02:07.565
Um, nothing like severe.

01:02:07.804 --> 01:02:13.284
Um, but enough that like, you know, it was causing its own amount of blood and stuff.

01:02:13.355 --> 01:02:23.539
And so, um, we, Once he got, um, off on the helicopter, we drove to the next closest base, regrouped, because everybody was, you know, shooken up.

01:02:23.559 --> 01:02:33.679
Because that was our first, like, I mean, like, the last injury, the RPG one, was, was bad, um, but he was coherent the whole time, like, when he got hit.

01:02:33.980 --> 01:02:36.920
You know, this was the first, like, really, really bad one.

01:02:37.519 --> 01:02:39.239
Yeah, Yeah, like, none of us knew if he was it.

01:02:39.250 --> 01:02:41.190
So we were all, like, really in bad shape.

01:02:41.519 --> 01:02:46.059
Um, and I went to the med clinic, and the medic was, you know, picking out.

01:02:46.655 --> 01:02:48.585
All the shrapnel, which I got to keep.

01:02:48.625 --> 01:02:50.644
I asked if I could keep the shrapnel.

01:02:50.644 --> 01:02:51.324
I do, I have them.

01:02:51.425 --> 01:02:53.594
They're just tiny little pieces, but um, I have them.

01:02:54.034 --> 01:03:06.224
But um, my, my platoon sergeant, uh, the medic at first, when the medic saw me, Um, with all the blood on me, they were like, oh my God, like they were ready to strip me down because they thought the blood was coming from me.

01:03:06.224 --> 01:03:09.105
And my platoon sergeant's like, no, this is her buddy's blood.

01:03:09.554 --> 01:03:12.175
And the medic was like, she's got to get out of here.

01:03:12.224 --> 01:03:13.635
Like you got to get her home.

01:03:14.175 --> 01:03:16.965
And I, um, I was like, no way.

01:03:17.025 --> 01:03:17.385
Nope.

01:03:17.425 --> 01:03:18.155
Absolutely not.

01:03:18.255 --> 01:03:19.655
Um, because again, I just.

01:03:20.614 --> 01:03:22.054
I mean, it wasn't really the medic's place.

01:03:22.054 --> 01:03:24.114
Like it wasn't like the medic couldn't make that decision.

01:03:24.125 --> 01:03:26.144
But, um, I'm like, I looked at my platoon sergeant.

01:03:26.144 --> 01:03:27.905
I'm like, no way I'm not going home.

01:03:27.914 --> 01:03:29.175
And he's like, yeah, you're not going anywhere.

01:03:29.204 --> 01:03:30.414
Like, he's like, we need you.

01:03:31.795 --> 01:03:33.945
And why did the medic think you needed to go home?

01:03:33.945 --> 01:03:38.474
Do you think that was because of the sort of emotional impact of what you'd seen?

01:03:38.474 --> 01:03:46.184
So although you were relatively physically unscathed, that he must have been aware that what you'd seen and what you'd experienced would take a toll on you mentally.

01:03:46.235 --> 01:03:59.255
But I'm guessing that in the military there's not much time for that because if everybody that was emotionally scarred by something they'd seen in the army, there'd be no soldiers if they were all discharged immediately.

01:03:59.735 --> 01:04:08.414
And I suppose I'm also wondering whether there was almost like an ignition in you, like, uh, I need to do this because of what's now happened to my buddy.

01:04:08.525 --> 01:04:10.885
Like, you're sort of, you come back

01:04:11.054 --> 01:04:12.914
I was so angry.

01:04:13.255 --> 01:04:18.045
Um, and you know, I've gone through years of healing and trying therapy.

01:04:18.344 --> 01:04:21.945
Um, at the time though, I was so angry.

01:04:22.244 --> 01:04:23.025
I wanted.

01:04:23.445 --> 01:04:43.704
All I wanted to do was like have revenge and you know, and I'm, I'm ashamed to say that now because like my views on the war have changed completely from 20 years ago, but at that moment in time, I just wanted to pull that, my trigger on any, anybody, because it was like, I was so, so angry at all of just the whole country.

01:04:44.125 --> 01:04:49.744
Um, and again, I, like, I know that's not right now, but you know, at the time, this is the way it was.

01:04:50.679 --> 01:05:04.329
and the anger as well will be fear based because you, in the space of a few days, you've had a bullet fly, fly so fast, so close to your face you can feel it, and you've seen your buddy, your work buddy, be blown up essentially.

01:05:05.030 --> 01:05:13.090
So your, your fear and the fear that it could happen to you, the fear of what that might do to your family, that's going to often come out.

01:05:13.405 --> 01:05:13.650
Fear

01:05:13.704 --> 01:05:15.144
Yes, yeah, absolutely.

01:05:15.144 --> 01:05:15.434
Yeah.

01:05:15.434 --> 01:05:18.394
So I, I was like, there's no way I'm going home.

01:05:18.394 --> 01:05:19.614
I'm like, this is what they want.

01:05:19.644 --> 01:05:23.724
You know, they're trying to take us out one by one because they want to, you know, that's how they're going to win.

01:05:23.994 --> 01:05:29.184
And so in my brain, I was like, I have to stay, like, I can't, I can't go home.

01:05:29.195 --> 01:05:30.954
Like that's quitting and I can't quit.

01:05:30.985 --> 01:05:35.545
You know, I, and I, and I felt like that would, what would that do for my buddy?

01:05:35.565 --> 01:05:36.875
Like, you know what I mean?

01:05:36.875 --> 01:05:37.434
Like, I don't know.

01:05:37.434 --> 01:05:46.045
Like he had to go home and, um, Like, I have to stay and, like, carry on his, like, his legacy and, like, what he wanted to carry out.

01:05:46.065 --> 01:05:48.085
And so, we got back to base.

01:05:48.155 --> 01:05:52.894
They made me go, there was like a little mental health, they had like two psychiatrists on base.

01:05:53.375 --> 01:06:00.885
They made me go talk to them, and I did, and, um, I, I told them that, I'm like, I don't, you know, I don't want to go home.

01:06:01.460 --> 01:06:05.340
And so they did some like kind of like mental health evaluation and they're like, yep, you're good.

01:06:05.389 --> 01:06:12.949
Um, I don't want to say women are better at that but I think we we are good at like kind of I think anybody, you know, yeah in math.

01:06:12.969 --> 01:06:15.980
Yeah the math game and so, you know, I just was like, nope I'm good.

01:06:15.980 --> 01:06:25.849
I can tough it out, you know, and they're like, okay Well, like you do need a week off like that was like their rule They were like we want to give you we don't want you back on the road for a week So I got put on tower duty.

01:06:25.909 --> 01:06:37.974
So I just was I was on guard duty for a week um And That almost like made my anger worse because I was just like sitting still, you know, and like had all this time to like, yeah, percolating.

01:06:37.985 --> 01:06:40.755
Um, I had to wash all of our gear.

01:06:40.784 --> 01:06:50.065
So like, I literally had this like just big bucket of water and I would like was just soaking all of our blood soaked water, like uniforms and just dumping it in the ground.

01:06:50.065 --> 01:06:51.625
I'm like, I'm about sanitation.

01:06:52.304 --> 01:06:52.905
I know.

01:06:53.224 --> 01:07:04.485
Um, but um, My first like my first request though was I was like I want I want Shane's machine gun because I had I just had a normal rifle And I was like we're down a gunner.

01:07:04.795 --> 01:07:06.065
I'm like, I know how to use it.

01:07:06.094 --> 01:07:21.389
Like he trained me on it um, I was like, I want to be the replacement machine gunner and so My platoon sergeant my squad leader was like, okay Um, we'll see how this goes I was one of the only females to have a machine gun.

01:07:21.630 --> 01:07:26.800
And so, um, what we call, uh, uh, M249 is what they're called.

01:07:26.849 --> 01:07:32.329
But, um, I wanted to be in the gun trucks with the 50 cal machine gunners.

01:07:32.715 --> 01:07:47.864
And they were like, they were all guys and they were like, well, you have to be able to carry the 50 Cal because if we're, if, if, if things are going down and we got to take all the equipment out of the truck, like you got to be able to disassemble the 50 Cal machine gun and, and carry it.

01:07:47.914 --> 01:07:49.275
And so they made me practice.

01:07:49.284 --> 01:07:57.135
Like I had to like practice, like lifting this huge 50 Cal machine gun over my head and putting it in the truck and then taking it and taking it out just over and over again.

01:07:57.144 --> 01:07:57.655
And I did it.

01:07:57.824 --> 01:07:58.815
I was like, I'm going to do it.

01:07:59.364 --> 01:07:59.775
And so.

01:08:00.715 --> 01:08:06.335
Yeah, I, I was, I mean, I'm, the fury was like so, strong.

01:08:06.355 --> 01:08:07.795
I was like, I'll do whatever I have to.

01:08:07.824 --> 01:08:11.664
And um, my first mission a week later was the same exact route.

01:08:12.184 --> 01:08:14.014
So you talk about like having to face your fear.

01:08:14.045 --> 01:08:20.774
I was, I was a machine gunner in gun truck one driving the same road, uh, that I got hit on.

01:08:21.284 --> 01:08:21.744
Yeah.

01:08:21.755 --> 01:08:31.274
So you talk about like just, A, not having any real time to recover, um, but I was just so full of like this, this anger and fury.

01:08:31.795 --> 01:08:32.614
I didn't even care.

01:08:32.654 --> 01:08:34.444
And then, yeah, I had to go back on the same road.

01:08:34.454 --> 01:08:42.055
And I kind of, like, there was a quick moment when we were driving where, like, I felt my heart, like, start, like, my heartbeat started quickening as we were going up the ramp.

01:08:42.064 --> 01:08:44.734
And I was like, no, they do not get the satisfaction.

01:08:45.034 --> 01:08:47.694
And so I like, I wanted to close my eyes, but I didn't.

01:08:47.694 --> 01:08:53.494
And like, I just like looked right at the, like, right at the burn marks where I saw where my truck had been blown up.

01:08:53.914 --> 01:08:55.845
And I was like, no, F that.

01:08:55.864 --> 01:08:57.164
They're not going to get the best of me.

01:08:57.164 --> 01:08:59.024
Like, I'm going, I'm going to conquer this.

01:08:59.064 --> 01:09:00.125
Like, I'm going to get past this.

01:09:00.944 --> 01:09:01.244
So,

01:09:02.579 --> 01:09:05.149
That's a very definition of facing your fears, I think that,

01:09:05.354 --> 01:09:06.685
mean, yeah, there was no other choice.

01:09:06.734 --> 01:09:07.064
Yeah.

01:09:09.640 --> 01:09:11.689
And how much longer did you spend out in

01:09:11.774 --> 01:09:16.274
So that was only May and we didn't go home until February of the next year.

01:09:16.484 --> 01:09:16.954
So,

01:09:18.135 --> 01:09:18.944
Oh wow,

01:09:19.024 --> 01:09:20.194
yeah, yeah.

01:09:20.515 --> 01:09:21.175
And I got,

01:09:22.034 --> 01:09:23.734
And what's your husband saying about this?

01:09:23.734 --> 01:09:24.055
Because

01:09:24.234 --> 01:09:28.725
well, I, I was really nervous to tell my family that what had happened.

01:09:28.755 --> 01:09:38.390
And so the, like the next time I got like, uh, the first time I got a chance to call after I got hit, Um, I can't remember exactly what I told him.

01:09:38.390 --> 01:09:43.149
I think I told him like there's been an incident, but I, again, I'd be really careful over the phone.

01:09:43.159 --> 01:09:44.569
Like you can't share a lot of details.

01:09:44.569 --> 01:09:45.840
I was like, I'm okay.

01:09:45.840 --> 01:09:49.439
I'm like, but you know, some things happened.

01:09:49.449 --> 01:09:55.699
Um, you know, I can't share a lot, you know, Shane's okay, but he's not here.

01:09:55.710 --> 01:09:57.649
Like, I think I tried to be as cryptic as I could.

01:09:57.649 --> 01:09:59.010
I can't remember exactly what I said.

01:09:59.010 --> 01:10:04.350
And he's like, my husband's like the, just the most iconic calm, cool and collected person.

01:10:04.369 --> 01:10:06.350
So he was just like, okay, like.

01:10:07.090 --> 01:10:12.130
You know, um, honestly, I don't think we ever really talked about it, like, all these years.

01:10:12.170 --> 01:10:16.930
Like, I don't think we ever really talked about, like, what he was going through, like, you know, how he felt about that.

01:10:16.930 --> 01:10:17.579
I should ask him.

01:10:18.020 --> 01:10:18.564
But, um,

01:10:20.215 --> 01:10:25.074
And I suppose his military background will have helped, because he knows that this sort of thing happens.

01:10:25.074 --> 01:10:25.774
The fact that you were

01:10:25.859 --> 01:10:25.979
Mm

01:10:26.104 --> 01:10:28.164
and able to speak to him immediately, the

01:10:28.369 --> 01:10:28.810
Right.

01:10:28.909 --> 01:10:29.270
Right.

01:10:29.319 --> 01:10:29.939
So, like, yeah.

01:10:29.970 --> 01:10:31.279
So, I think that was reassuring.

01:10:31.710 --> 01:10:39.109
But what broke my heart was a few weeks later, um, I called my mother in law because she babysat my daughter a lot when my husband worked.

01:10:39.545 --> 01:10:57.685
And so I knew it was during the workday and my husband was working, so I called my mother in law and she, uh, called for Alessandra and she, you know, this time she's like four years old and she comes running to the phone and my mother in law says, Oh, your mommy's on the phone and she goes, Oh, is it my new mommy or my old mommy?

01:10:58.904 --> 01:11:04.435
And because she had got, she had seen some pictures of me, but I had looked a lot different because I cut all my hair off.

01:11:05.145 --> 01:11:17.274
And, um, and then she gets on the phone with me and she must have overheard some discussion with, you know, with my husband or somebody, because she knew, she asked me why my heart was purple.

01:11:18.364 --> 01:11:20.045
She was like, why is your heart purple now?

01:11:20.515 --> 01:11:26.619
Because they must have been talking about a, because you, when you're injured and in combat, you get a purple heart And so

01:11:27.484 --> 01:11:32.604
was going to say that's a, that's a, um, a, uh, a commendation.

01:11:32.645 --> 01:11:32.935
I can't

01:11:32.979 --> 01:11:33.340
Yeah.

01:11:33.390 --> 01:11:37.670
So, um, I hadn't received it yet, but it was pretty much assumed that I would get one.

01:11:37.979 --> 01:11:42.420
Um, and so she made a comment to me like, Why is your heart purple now, mommy?

01:11:42.470 --> 01:11:47.310
And I was just like, like, oh, it's not, it's not really purple.

01:11:47.319 --> 01:11:52.840
Like, that's just something people say, you know, because like, how do you explain that to your four year old kid?

01:11:53.170 --> 01:11:55.979
Um, so yeah, so that was, that was hard.

01:11:58.270 --> 01:11:59.300
Although, what's your first thought?

01:11:59.329 --> 01:12:00.840
Is my husband having an affair?

01:12:00.949 --> 01:12:05.229
It was, yes, like initially when I heard her say, is it my new mommy or old mommy?

01:12:05.229 --> 01:12:08.939
I was like, the hell is that supposed to be?

01:12:10.159 --> 01:12:12.090
He, there was no, there was no time for him.

01:12:14.079 --> 01:12:18.010
No, no, no, he had to be here to keep the home fires burning.

01:12:18.800 --> 01:12:27.560
And so when you did return home, obviously you must have come back quite significantly changed by what you'd experienced.

01:12:27.560 --> 01:12:28.479
And did you go back

01:12:28.529 --> 01:12:29.380
That was my only deployment.

01:12:29.569 --> 01:12:29.920
Yeah.

01:12:30.079 --> 01:12:30.449
Yeah.

01:12:30.579 --> 01:12:30.859
tour.

01:12:30.979 --> 01:12:31.260
Yeah.

01:12:32.399 --> 01:12:33.359
right Yeah.

01:12:33.529 --> 01:12:34.340
word here, does it?

01:12:34.909 --> 01:12:41.189
Um, so, how did you, I mean, firstly tell me a little bit about how you felt when you were told it was time to come home.

01:12:41.229 --> 01:12:42.479
Because that must have been incredible.

01:12:42.819 --> 01:12:47.529
And then you coming home, presumably on a military aircraft, not the most luxurious way to travel.

01:12:48.029 --> 01:12:52.590
And then you're coming home into reality after being out in the desert.

01:12:52.689 --> 01:12:53.720
How on earth did that

01:12:53.779 --> 01:13:02.539
So we, uh, went back to Wisconsin first and they had us like kind of go through, um, just like some product out processing, like all of our paperwork.

01:13:02.539 --> 01:13:05.229
They did like medical evaluations back then.

01:13:05.229 --> 01:13:06.319
They didn't do a lot of like.

01:13:07.154 --> 01:13:08.454
mental evaluations though.

01:13:08.454 --> 01:13:11.864
Like now it's gotten a lot better for like soldiers when they come home from war.

01:13:12.154 --> 01:13:13.895
Um, back then it wasn't that much.

01:13:13.925 --> 01:13:18.454
Um, and we were, I think we were in Wisconsin maybe close to a week.

01:13:18.465 --> 01:13:22.194
They had to evaluate if anybody needed to stay longer for more medical care or not.

01:13:22.225 --> 01:13:34.055
So, um, again, you didn't want, you didn't want to like complain about any ailments you had because like a couple of the guys like thought, Oh, if I tell them everything that'll help my disability paperwork.

01:13:34.685 --> 01:13:36.685
Well, it did, but they got stuck there.

01:13:37.039 --> 01:13:42.180
And like, so some guys like got stuck in Wisconsin for months and I was like, Oh no, like, I'm, I'm fine.

01:13:42.369 --> 01:13:43.069
Everything's fine.

01:13:43.369 --> 01:13:44.300
Yeah, like, I'm fine.

01:13:44.310 --> 01:13:45.170
Nothing's wrong with me.

01:13:45.619 --> 01:13:55.619
Um, and I remember we drove on a, just like a charter bus back to Michigan and I just remember like being so anxious, but like nervous and like scared.

01:13:56.369 --> 01:14:03.630
It was just like all these emotions, like coming home, like you're excited, you're relieved, but then like you're nervous, like, is my daughter going to remember me?

01:14:03.649 --> 01:14:05.819
Like, is it, am I going to be the same mom?

01:14:05.829 --> 01:14:07.869
Like, am I going to be able to even be a mom again?

01:14:07.880 --> 01:14:08.899
Like, I don't know.

01:14:09.329 --> 01:14:13.909
Um, am I going to know how to like be maternal after so long?

01:14:13.920 --> 01:14:14.909
Like, I just didn't know.

01:14:14.939 --> 01:14:16.060
So I was like really nervous.

01:14:16.060 --> 01:14:17.949
And um, they were there.

01:14:17.979 --> 01:14:19.560
Um, so cute.

01:14:19.569 --> 01:14:22.819
Like my husband and my daughter had made a poster and so they're holding it.

01:14:23.619 --> 01:14:31.489
Um, And my parents are there and it was really, it was really good.

01:14:31.960 --> 01:14:35.050
Yeah, it was really, it was, you know, just really emotional.

01:14:35.180 --> 01:14:35.460
Yeah,

01:14:37.539 --> 01:14:41.539
like it, I imagine, walking back into the arms of your family after living out there in that hellhole,

01:14:41.890 --> 01:14:42.640
yeah, yeah.

01:14:42.640 --> 01:14:43.350
It was, yeah.

01:14:45.569 --> 01:14:51.140
And so what about when you got home and the dust, or sand, had settled?

01:14:51.140 --> 01:14:54.399
You'd washed it all out of your boots and your nooks and crannies.

01:14:54.869 --> 01:14:58.300
Um, did you settle back into sort of home life well, or was it

01:14:58.414 --> 01:14:59.505
It was very tough.

01:14:59.545 --> 01:15:00.675
Um, I struggled.

01:15:00.704 --> 01:15:03.654
Um, I didn't want anybody to know I was struggling.

01:15:03.664 --> 01:15:06.279
So I, Yep.

01:15:06.725 --> 01:15:16.914
And you know, I just being in the National Guard, um, you get 30 days, um, paid to like, kind of like stay home before you have to go back to your norm, whatever your job was before, you know?

01:15:16.914 --> 01:15:22.385
So like at the time I was a manager for a store in our, in a mall, like I was like a boutique, you know, manager.

01:15:22.479 --> 01:15:22.649
hmm.

01:15:23.555 --> 01:15:26.185
And so I think I lasted like two weeks.

01:15:26.850 --> 01:15:30.130
Before I was like, I gotta go back to work like being home.

01:15:30.510 --> 01:15:32.569
I like reorganize the pantry.

01:15:32.600 --> 01:15:45.069
I cleaned everything and I was taking my daughter to preschool every day, but I needed to be busy and I didn't know it at the time that I had post traumatic stress, but like, I wasn't sleeping.

01:15:45.350 --> 01:15:48.689
Um, I was literally, I would lay in bed at night and.

01:15:49.085 --> 01:16:00.484
We live close to a pretty busy road and so like I would hear the semis breaking and hear the Like the you know, like the brakes like Um, I would think that we were under attack.

01:16:00.760 --> 01:16:06.489
So I would like literally like sit by the windows of the room or bedroom, like pulling guard duty.

01:16:06.779 --> 01:16:08.859
And I was like, so embarrassed.

01:16:08.859 --> 01:16:11.050
I like wouldn't tell anybody like, Nope.

01:16:11.050 --> 01:16:18.390
I mean, you know, I think my husband knew cause you'd wake up and see me awake and stuff, but, um, I didn't want anybody to know.

01:16:18.460 --> 01:16:20.069
And so I'm like, I'm just gonna go back to work.

01:16:20.069 --> 01:16:21.260
If I go back to work.

01:16:22.125 --> 01:16:24.994
Everything will be fine and, you know, whatever.

01:16:25.255 --> 01:16:36.435
So I went back to work and quickly realized, uh, that was no good either because I hated, like, I just had this, like, like, despise, I guess is the word.

01:16:36.435 --> 01:16:37.854
I despise civilians.

01:16:37.895 --> 01:16:46.435
Because what I realized was, like, all my buddies and I, we were off at war and people were at home just, like, living normal lives.

01:16:47.064 --> 01:16:57.185
And like, you know, when they would come in to return jeans or like complain about their sweater being too small or something, I'm like, this is, this is your life, like you're mad because you got the wrong size sweater.

01:16:57.225 --> 01:17:00.614
Like, yeah.

01:17:00.614 --> 01:17:06.175
And so I, um, I really struggled and I wouldn't tell anybody.

01:17:06.645 --> 01:17:20.654
Um, and one of, I joined the VFW, which is the veterans of foreign wars, it's like a club, Um, and one of the Vietnam buddy, one of the Vietnam guys, he saw it, like he, he could tell that I was struggling.

01:17:20.994 --> 01:17:25.395
And so he was like, Hey, why don't you come with me to the VA hospital?

01:17:25.454 --> 01:17:28.925
He's like, I'll help you get registered so that way you're in the system.

01:17:29.204 --> 01:17:31.715
He's like, and he's like, I just happened to have a therapy appointment.

01:17:31.734 --> 01:17:33.914
And my, my doctor said that you can take my spot.

01:17:34.505 --> 01:17:41.149
And so, and like he, but he did it in such a good way that like, He knew I wouldn't say no.

01:17:41.470 --> 01:17:43.899
And so I was like, alright, fine, I'll go.

01:17:43.960 --> 01:17:49.159
And, um, I talked to her and she's like, we have got to get you in.

01:17:49.420 --> 01:17:50.869
Like, we have to get you in the system.

01:17:50.890 --> 01:17:55.640
And so pretty much, That was the summer of 2005.

01:17:55.689 --> 01:18:03.590
Um, I got diagnosed with PTSD like almost immediately because I started telling her what happened and she's like, you need help.

01:18:03.609 --> 01:18:11.310
And it would take probably over almost 15 years before I really devoted time.

01:18:11.310 --> 01:18:15.090
Yeah, I, I ran away from it and like, like literally ran away from it.

01:18:15.090 --> 01:18:22.755
I, I turned to running, Um, we ended up having another baby because I was like, if I have another baby, that'll, that'll distract me.

01:18:22.954 --> 01:18:24.135
That'll make, that'll heal me.

01:18:24.145 --> 01:18:25.055
That'll fix everything.

01:18:25.595 --> 01:18:27.135
Um, that didn't work.

01:18:27.295 --> 01:18:36.465
So then I became, um, a workaholic and then I went back to college and I got multiple degrees and then I would just run and run and ran marathons and ultra marathons.

01:18:36.475 --> 01:18:40.305
I kept doing all these things thinking that's what would fix me.

01:18:41.664 --> 01:18:44.875
But I wasn't coming to terms with what I had been through.

01:18:44.994 --> 01:18:53.274
And so it really wasn't until I finally like truly went into like, like legitimate therapy, prolonged exposure therapy, that I faced it.

01:18:53.675 --> 01:19:04.295
Um, and I mean, I'm still, you know, there's still a lot of things I need to work through, but, um, I just, sometimes I regret how long it took me to get to that point.

01:19:05.034 --> 01:19:07.414
But nobody can make you do it.

01:19:07.454 --> 01:19:11.654
Like you have to, you have to come to terms with it yourself, you know?

01:19:11.935 --> 01:19:13.635
no, I completely agree.

01:19:13.645 --> 01:19:18.175
And I, I mean, when Ben died, I had, I had a very short spell of therapy,

01:19:18.260 --> 01:19:18.369
Mm hmm.

01:19:18.395 --> 01:19:19.814
not gel with a therapist at all.

01:19:20.314 --> 01:19:23.284
And then it took me five years before I walked back into a therapist's office.

01:19:23.404 --> 01:19:33.574
and not, I didn't do ultra marathons, although, yes I can say it on the vlog, I said I'd like to get in as many times but I did once do a marathon, not very fast, um, and I can call it running, but I did it.

01:19:34.274 --> 01:19:50.625
And, but I know that feeling of, you know, drinking, staring into your phone, running, eating, sex, drugs, whatever it may be, people who have been through an intense, trauma, generally don't want to face it and we think we're facing it.

01:19:50.685 --> 01:19:52.574
Well, I'm doing my yoga and my meditation.

01:19:52.574 --> 01:19:53.574
I'm doing all that stuff.

01:19:53.675 --> 01:19:58.965
But if you haven't had the opportunity to talk and, um, uh, what did you just call it?

01:19:58.965 --> 01:19:59.654
Prolonged

01:20:00.020 --> 01:20:01.250
Prolonged exposure therapy.

01:20:01.404 --> 01:20:03.734
uh, but prolonged exposure therapy.

01:20:03.734 --> 01:20:03.914
Yes.

01:20:03.914 --> 01:20:08.154
I'm missing a word because that's why I've been seeing the same therapist for almost three years now.

01:20:08.154 --> 01:20:10.395
And essentially I went in for my grief.

01:20:10.395 --> 01:20:16.850
Um, I got sober, I created a career, I found out I was neurodivergent.

01:20:16.850 --> 01:20:22.010
So by having that prolonged therapy, you do tend to get much more into the crux of the issue.

01:20:22.350 --> 01:20:24.939
Unlike you, I'm a work in progress, absolutely I am.

01:20:25.420 --> 01:20:29.800
But I don't think there's any shame in how long it takes you to get there because it is

01:20:29.970 --> 01:20:30.430
Mm hmm.

01:20:31.189 --> 01:20:33.109
And you had literally been

01:20:33.260 --> 01:20:33.569
Mm hmm.

01:20:33.600 --> 01:20:37.079
17 to not ask for help, to not show weakness,

01:20:37.489 --> 01:20:37.859
Mm hmm.

01:20:37.899 --> 01:20:38.590
keep going.

01:20:38.590 --> 01:20:39.100
So you just

01:20:39.399 --> 01:20:40.180
Mm hmm.

01:20:40.180 --> 01:20:40.420
Right.

01:20:40.489 --> 01:20:47.779
And it's you know, I felt like as long as on the outside of people saw me being successful and you know, and people would, you know, and then like you'd get all the accolades.

01:20:47.779 --> 01:20:50.270
I get the people saying like, wow, I don't know how you do it all.

01:20:50.270 --> 01:20:52.689
And oh, you're so strong and you've been through so much.

01:20:52.689 --> 01:20:55.750
And so like, it almost like fueled me even more.

01:20:56.454 --> 01:21:08.114
And I'm like, I am fixed, you know, but then like something silly would happen, not silly, but like just some inconvenience would happen and I would just break down or like freak out and flip out on people.

01:21:08.295 --> 01:21:13.484
And it's like, okay, I'm not, I'm not better because like, that's not healthy.

01:21:13.494 --> 01:21:13.885
You know what I mean?

01:21:13.885 --> 01:21:17.835
I should be able to cope with a minor inconvenience without freaking out on people.

01:21:18.225 --> 01:21:19.805
Um, and I think, I think

01:21:20.194 --> 01:21:22.744
I don't know ever I met, ever met a perimenopausal woman,

01:21:23.085 --> 01:21:23.604
Exactly.

01:21:23.614 --> 01:21:23.935
Yeah.

01:21:26.045 --> 01:21:35.104
And during this time, this must have taken some degree of Aton on your family life, and I know that I've, I've, I said earlier, I've met one of your daughters, and I know that you are very, very close.

01:21:35.494 --> 01:21:38.854
Um, um, you're still with your husband, so presumably your marriage is strong.

01:21:39.244 --> 01:21:42.545
And but how did that impact on your family when you were struggling?

01:21:42.555 --> 01:21:56.914
don't think, well, I think my husband knew, um, you know, but I think he, again, being in the military and he actually, just to rewind a little bit, so I got out of the army in 2006, like that's when my contract was up.

01:21:57.954 --> 01:21:58.314
Oh, He

01:21:58.444 --> 01:21:59.479
He went back in.

01:21:59.479 --> 01:22:04.345
And so he, after I got out, he decided, he's like, I want to, I want to go back in.

01:22:04.345 --> 01:22:09.154
So he joined, uh, either late 2006 or 2007.

01:22:09.185 --> 01:22:09.835
I can't remember.

01:22:10.340 --> 01:22:12.729
And then he ended up going to Afghanistan in 2011.

01:22:13.319 --> 01:22:18.369
So we flipped roles and I became the military wife and he was the soldier again.

01:22:18.729 --> 01:22:24.880
And so honestly, those first couple of years, the, the, the focus switched.

01:22:24.890 --> 01:22:29.020
So then he was back into military training and then I was, I was the supporting role.

01:22:29.020 --> 01:22:36.939
And so I think our, I feel like our marriage wasn't really impacted because like we were constantly just like focused on something.

01:22:37.255 --> 01:22:37.954
You know what I mean?

01:22:37.975 --> 01:22:39.585
And again, I wasn't ready to talk about it.

01:22:39.585 --> 01:22:40.085
I was fine.

01:22:40.145 --> 01:22:40.854
Everything's fine.

01:22:40.914 --> 01:22:42.765
And so he's like, everything's fine.

01:22:42.835 --> 01:22:45.925
And now I have to serve and now I'm going to go to, you know, Afghanistan.

01:22:45.935 --> 01:22:50.975
And so, um, you know, I, I think we just, we were in survival mode.

01:22:51.045 --> 01:22:54.475
We just, we just kept, we just kept going and just kept pushing forward.

01:22:54.484 --> 01:22:57.515
And, um, yeah, I don't know.

01:22:57.515 --> 01:22:59.435
Like we just didn't talk about it.

01:22:59.435 --> 01:23:00.984
It just,

01:23:01.899 --> 01:23:05.489
I'm wondering whether when you're at home, is that in some ways more scary?

01:23:05.569 --> 01:23:09.409
Knowing that the person you love is out there and there's nothing you can do to protect them.

01:23:09.420 --> 01:23:14.100
Whereas when you're out there, like you said, you sort of disengage a bit from your home.

01:23:14.130 --> 01:23:16.460
So, and you're kind of responsible for what

01:23:16.739 --> 01:23:18.729
I will say that forever.

01:23:18.739 --> 01:23:23.409
I think the harder job is the family member that's back home taking care of the family.

01:23:23.489 --> 01:23:28.949
I really do because you're expected to work your day job, take care of the kids.

01:23:29.510 --> 01:23:33.720
Um, but you're terrified of what's going on with your spouse, you know, across the world.

01:23:34.039 --> 01:23:34.875
Um, where, you know,

01:23:35.560 --> 01:23:36.550
Every phone call

01:23:36.704 --> 01:23:44.055
Every time the phone would ring, you know, um, like I was at the time when, when he went to Afghanistan, I was a loan officer for a bank.

01:23:44.425 --> 01:23:48.534
And there were times like, I, I would tell my boss, like, I have to have my phone out all the time.

01:23:49.079 --> 01:23:53.569
Like my ringer has to be on because Milo could call me at any time and I have to be ready to answer it.

01:23:54.340 --> 01:24:01.000
And so there were many a times I'd be in the middle of a loan application with somebody and my phone would ring and I'd say, I'm sorry, I have to excuse myself.

01:24:01.020 --> 01:24:05.520
And I'd have to go answer it because if he was calling from Afghanistan, I wasn't going to miss the call, you know?

01:24:05.520 --> 01:24:06.649
And so, yeah,

01:24:07.039 --> 01:24:08.619
And if you explain to people that,

01:24:08.680 --> 01:24:09.300
most of the time.

01:24:09.979 --> 01:24:10.859
Because you're still

01:24:10.909 --> 01:24:11.149
yeah.

01:24:11.510 --> 01:24:11.750
Yeah.

01:24:12.239 --> 01:24:12.550
Yeah.

01:24:12.640 --> 01:24:18.840
Most, most people were, some people would get a little annoyed, but I'd be like, you know, but then usually they'd want to like know everything.

01:24:18.840 --> 01:24:21.859
I had to like tell them our whole life story and all that stuff.

01:24:21.869 --> 01:24:22.119
But

01:24:23.670 --> 01:24:24.420
Suddenly you've been

01:24:24.494 --> 01:24:24.885
Yeah.

01:24:24.994 --> 01:24:25.765
Like, okay.

01:24:25.835 --> 01:24:35.814
But, um, yeah, we just, I really don't think until like COVID hit, we, we both started facing everything we've been through, you know?

01:24:35.864 --> 01:24:36.175
Um,

01:24:36.909 --> 01:24:37.180
Yeah.

01:24:37.270 --> 01:24:39.460
There's nothing like a bit of condensed time at home, is there,

01:24:39.835 --> 01:24:40.274
Yeah.

01:24:40.545 --> 01:24:40.845
Yeah.

01:24:40.845 --> 01:24:44.664
And that's really when I started thinking, okay, I need to get into therapy.

01:24:44.664 --> 01:24:45.385
I need help.

01:24:45.925 --> 01:24:53.375
Um, you know, because I started facing it and I started, I started writing my book series, which was another form of therapy.

01:24:54.284 --> 01:24:56.494
It's a fictional story of a female soldier.

01:24:56.494 --> 01:25:03.524
So like I wrote the story about this female soldier who in in essence is me But it's all you know, it's all fiction.

01:25:03.744 --> 01:25:22.935
Um, and I had started writing that and as I was writing it I was really facing all these dark dark moments and i'm like I need somebody to help me process this I need a professional like to help me Figure out all all this stuff because there was so much that had happened in that year that I had blocked like I just completely me

01:25:23.555 --> 01:25:23.935
Yeah.

01:25:23.975 --> 01:25:26.265
blocked out and hadn't thought about in so long.

01:25:26.335 --> 01:25:30.145
So, um, that's really when I started dedicating time to it.

01:25:32.164 --> 01:25:33.055
What are your books called?

01:25:33.064 --> 01:25:33.274
Let's

01:25:33.425 --> 01:25:34.515
Um, always forward.

01:25:34.595 --> 01:25:35.734
Oh, here, I'll hold it up.

01:25:35.925 --> 01:25:36.935
That's the cover.

01:25:36.954 --> 01:25:41.975
And I do write, um, I write by, I have it in my name too, Cecilia.

01:25:42.265 --> 01:25:50.444
It was really important to me to, like, have a pen name, um, because I wasn't sure when I first wrote them, I wasn't sure if I wanted people to know it was me.

01:25:51.744 --> 01:25:53.375
You know, so I was like, I'm gonna do a pen name.

01:25:53.385 --> 01:25:58.045
Um, but there, it's a set, it's a set of four books, uh, and it follows a soldier named Emily.

01:25:58.524 --> 01:26:03.654
Um, and she becomes a prisoner of war, which obviously that didn't happen to me.

01:26:04.055 --> 01:26:08.364
Um, but it kind of is a metaphor for being a prisoner of my own mind.

01:26:09.204 --> 01:26:31.045
And so her being a prisoner of war, like I was a prisoner of war of like myself and so, um, and it was actually my buddy from Vietnam that, uh, he kind of, he was the one that kind of identified that because he was like my first beta reader, who's really my alpha reader, um, and, um, he, uh, when he was reading the first book, he's like, Emily is you.

01:26:31.654 --> 01:26:32.555
I'm like, no, she's not.

01:26:32.664 --> 01:26:43.145
He's like, he's like, she's you, like, he's like, I'm literally reading her talking to other soldiers and he's like, I'm hearing your voice, like, she's you, you know?

01:26:43.185 --> 01:26:43.614
And so

01:26:44.585 --> 01:26:45.774
I'm going to order these

01:26:45.925 --> 01:26:46.604
they are on Amazon.

01:26:46.604 --> 01:26:46.944
Yes.

01:26:46.975 --> 01:26:47.284
Yep.

01:26:47.515 --> 01:26:47.904
So

01:26:48.939 --> 01:26:52.670
I will I will order them and I will also leave you a review.

01:26:52.795 --> 01:26:53.215
thank you.

01:26:53.354 --> 01:26:53.774
Thank you.

01:26:54.229 --> 01:26:56.960
And, well, assuming they're good, of course, I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't.

01:26:58.770 --> 01:27:03.270
Um, and I will put a link into the notes for this episode as well in case anybody else would like to read them.

01:27:04.130 --> 01:27:09.479
So, Adele, you've obviously come an enormous, a long way, and you work in a completely different field.

01:27:09.664 --> 01:27:10.104
Yes.

01:27:10.164 --> 01:27:10.465
Yep.

01:27:10.560 --> 01:27:10.850
right?

01:27:11.289 --> 01:27:14.909
But you've got some high, high flying fancy sounding job title,

01:27:15.284 --> 01:27:18.925
Well, yeah, I, I do like product development, so I like create.

01:27:19.180 --> 01:27:20.050
Your checking accounts.

01:27:20.250 --> 01:27:32.899
So it's like really weird because like it's not physical products, but I basically like Create all of the products you use for your finances and then like I manage like the rates And so like loan rates and deposit rates and stuff like that.

01:27:32.909 --> 01:27:33.630
Like that's what I do

01:27:35.710 --> 01:27:44.829
But the really lovely thing that I'm hearing in your story is that you joined the army because you wanted to go to college, because you wanted to find a career that you could excel in.

01:27:45.430 --> 01:27:46.319
And although it

01:27:46.500 --> 01:27:46.600
Yeah,

01:27:46.680 --> 01:27:50.850
a cost, of course it did, it came at a huge cost, but you did get to go to college, you just

01:27:50.899 --> 01:27:53.649
yeah, so I went um got my bachelor's and I got my master's

01:27:54.180 --> 01:27:55.479
That and the ultra marathons.

01:27:55.779 --> 01:28:07.654
Yeah, I um, yeah, I ended up getting my master's degree in finance, um and uh It's, it's interesting because I always knew when I came home from the army, I was like, I don't want to drive trucks.

01:28:07.675 --> 01:28:09.404
Like I could have easily just been a truck driver.

01:28:09.484 --> 01:28:12.944
Like I could have, you know, I had my CDL could have continued being a truck driver.

01:28:12.965 --> 01:28:18.939
I was like, I don't ever want to drive another semi or, you know, like I don't ever want to have to drive a 40 foot trailer another day in my life.

01:28:19.534 --> 01:28:26.510
Um, and so I, uh, I've always been really good with like numbers and like It's always been a joke in my family.

01:28:26.510 --> 01:28:27.909
I'm just really good at making money.

01:28:27.920 --> 01:28:33.579
So like, I was like, it just kind of was a natural progression to go into finance.

01:28:33.760 --> 01:28:35.569
Um, you know, and I, I worked my way up.

01:28:35.590 --> 01:28:39.609
I started off as a teller, like a part time teller, and I worked my way up through the ranks.

01:28:39.630 --> 01:28:44.670
And, um, I think that also really helped me like doing just like I did in the army.

01:28:44.670 --> 01:28:46.390
I started off as a private, made my way to sergeant.

01:28:47.319 --> 01:28:47.560
I was

01:28:47.729 --> 01:28:58.520
Yeah, and um, you know, and I, I, I really pride myself on that, on like doing all of the jobs, like my motto both military and professionally has always been I lead from the front.

01:28:58.869 --> 01:29:05.939
And so like my, my employees know, um, I would never ask them to do something I wouldn't do myself, just like in the military.

01:29:05.979 --> 01:29:13.710
Uh, you know, you don't eat before your soldiers, like you eat last, you never make them do something that you personally wouldn't do.

01:29:13.960 --> 01:29:15.890
Um, and I carry that over into my corporate life.

01:29:15.930 --> 01:29:17.100
Like it's really important.

01:29:17.470 --> 01:29:20.800
But it's isolating because a lot of civilians don't have that mentality.

01:29:21.340 --> 01:29:24.199
So a lot of civilians are out for themselves.

01:29:24.220 --> 01:29:28.850
And so Being a team player sometimes can be a struggle in the corporate world.

01:29:30.770 --> 01:29:32.020
So ironically being a team

01:29:32.310 --> 01:29:33.479
Yeah, exactly.

01:29:33.560 --> 01:29:33.970
Yeah

01:29:34.505 --> 01:29:34.864
Yeah.

01:29:36.274 --> 01:29:43.545
And aside from, from the obviously the counseling, what, what has been the sort of most fundamental thing you've done for yourself in your healing?

01:29:43.574 --> 01:29:46.704
Because I met you at a yoga retreat and you're a yoga teacher as well.

01:29:46.774 --> 01:29:48.055
I mean, you know, of course you are.

01:29:48.095 --> 01:29:49.045
Anything you can't do?

01:29:49.390 --> 01:29:55.050
that was well that was another um Just you know something I wanted to do that was part of my healing process.

01:29:55.090 --> 01:30:20.015
Um, you know, I met um elizabeth in um, Gosh, i'm not even sure what year through running we met we met through running You Found out she was a yoga instructor, and then when she was offering a yoga teacher's training class, I'm like, I didn't really have the calling to be a teacher, but I'm like, ooh, I need to know everything about yoga, like, I need to know every single little thing, um, so that, yeah,

01:30:20.145 --> 01:30:21.034
I want to know why.

01:30:21.064 --> 01:30:22.274
Why, why do I do that?

01:30:22.274 --> 01:30:26.444
Why is it cool that, yeah, to be honest, I've been toying with the idea of doing a qualification because I'm the

01:30:26.595 --> 01:30:37.819
yeah, and it's so helpful, and it's in, um, even my therapist has noted it, like, having that background helps me, because like, I, I know, I'm so like self aware now.

01:30:37.840 --> 01:30:40.220
So like when I feel certain parts of my body, I'm like, Oh.

01:30:40.890 --> 01:30:42.029
I'm holding a lot of tension.

01:30:42.039 --> 01:30:51.390
I need to do X poses or I need to do this breathing exercise or this type of meditation or like I need to open my heart chakra so I can, you know, release those emotions.

01:30:51.829 --> 01:30:57.630
Um, and so like my yoga teacher training was a huge part of my therapy too.

01:30:58.020 --> 01:31:03.979
Um, because I was like in therapy doing yoga teacher training and writing book one all at the same time.

01:31:04.414 --> 01:31:06.935
And so, um, I would bounce ideas off Elizabeth.

01:31:07.845 --> 01:31:08.494
Yeah, you know, right?

01:31:08.505 --> 01:31:09.015
Of course I was.

01:31:09.305 --> 01:31:11.547
Um, but you know, I would bounce ideas off of her.

01:31:11.635 --> 01:31:20.395
I would tell her pieces of the books, because a big part of the books is that when Emily was a prisoner of war, her husband was told she was deceased.

01:31:20.899 --> 01:31:23.609
So he was a widower for a good amount of years.

01:31:23.859 --> 01:31:30.720
And so Elizabeth really helped educate me on, um, I would like tell her, like, I'm thinking about having him say this.

01:31:30.899 --> 01:31:34.800
And she'd be like, no, like, that's not something he would say or do or think.

01:31:34.800 --> 01:31:37.640
And so that was really a whole component.

01:31:37.640 --> 01:31:39.489
I hadn't even like considered, you know what I mean?

01:31:39.489 --> 01:31:42.670
Like that whole, um, just mentality.

01:31:42.670 --> 01:31:51.520
So, um, I mean, when she sees this, like, she'll know, but like, she was a huge part of, you know, helping me kind of write those characters and figure that kind of stuff out, too.

01:31:51.550 --> 01:31:53.149
But it was all a part of my journey.

01:31:53.319 --> 01:31:54.039
Like, it really was.

01:31:54.039 --> 01:31:54.460
Mm

01:31:55.720 --> 01:32:03.680
And I think there's something about people who've been through a traumatic experience, whatever that may be, that means that they want to help people out.

01:32:03.920 --> 01:32:06.090
They want to give you that, throw you that ladder.

01:32:06.100 --> 01:32:13.180
You know, I know the only person that can climb up it is you, but people who've been through something horrible, they want to help you get out.

01:32:13.779 --> 01:32:20.664
And that's what I'm hearing about with you and Elizabeth, you know, she's, really support what, even the fact that somebody's willing to read your draft of your book, right?

01:32:20.694 --> 01:32:28.635
Because I'm currently, I think I mentioned on the retreat, I'm sort of two, three quarters of the way through my own and it's that getting over yourself, right?

01:32:28.685 --> 01:32:41.864
I've got, I've got to show it to somebody because I don't know if it's shit or not because I've sat in it for so long and it, you need somebody that's going to be kind and empathetic and also to have that insight into something that you didn't have your own

01:32:42.239 --> 01:32:43.289
Yeah, absolutely.

01:32:44.409 --> 01:32:51.890
I think there's something to be said for the wounded, whether that be emotionally or physically, and the kindness that you're able to show for other people.

01:32:52.939 --> 01:32:56.100
So, what does life look like for you now?

01:32:56.380 --> 01:32:58.479
You live with you, your oldest daughter doesn't

01:32:58.479 --> 01:32:59.289
she's on her own.

01:33:00.079 --> 01:33:00.390
Yep.

01:33:00.659 --> 01:33:01.680
left home, yeah?

01:33:01.739 --> 01:33:04.220
So you've got one daughter at home, but neither you or your

01:33:04.250 --> 01:33:06.270
Nope, he's, he retired a few years ago.

01:33:06.659 --> 01:33:08.960
Um, and life's a lot slower now.

01:33:08.989 --> 01:33:17.774
So I've definitely, um, you know, I, I, evolved from the prolonged exposure therapy to just traditional cognitive based therapy.

01:33:17.774 --> 01:33:19.375
So, you know, I still live in therapy.

01:33:19.685 --> 01:33:23.685
Um, the goal is to not need it, but I'm not quite there yet.

01:33:24.005 --> 01:33:28.135
Um, and, you know, I'm a lot kinder to myself now.

01:33:28.225 --> 01:33:31.244
So I don't, I don't feel the need to be doing so many things.

01:33:32.954 --> 01:33:38.145
I mean, I am still busy because I'm actively writing book five, but, um, but I'm also a lot kinder to myself.

01:33:38.175 --> 01:33:47.744
So like I started writing book five a year ago and I'm still not done because I needed, I took a break and, um, I took almost eight months off of writing.

01:33:47.824 --> 01:33:48.935
Like I didn't write anything.

01:33:49.295 --> 01:33:51.795
Um, because I just needed to rest my brain.

01:33:51.814 --> 01:33:54.694
And, um, I spent a lot of time in my gardens.

01:33:55.979 --> 01:33:57.609
I hike a lot outside.

01:33:57.710 --> 01:33:58.500
I do yoga.

01:33:58.520 --> 01:34:04.350
So, you know, it's I'm kind of at this point in my life where I'm finally at peace.

01:34:06.039 --> 01:34:15.670
I like to spend time with my husband with my both my daughters, but you know, they're both My oldest is off doing her own thing and my other one is getting ready to move on to, you know, to her next stage of life.

01:34:15.710 --> 01:34:27.770
So, um, just a lot of time with my husband and our dogs and just, you know, um, kind of just slowing down and just being okay with that and knowing, like, it's okay to be still.

01:34:29.779 --> 01:34:30.180
It is.

01:34:30.465 --> 01:34:30.854
adjustment.

01:34:30.895 --> 01:34:35.904
I'm sort of trying to, I mean I say I'm doing, I'm trying to do this, I'm not, I'm juggling far, spinning far too many plates.

01:34:36.595 --> 01:34:49.935
But I do try and take the time to do like a 20 minute breath work or like you just do some stretches or sometimes just go and put my headphones in and just say I'm just going upstairs for half an hour because I need to not be around, the sea of noise is my house.

01:34:50.864 --> 01:34:53.265
And it is that finding that little pieces of

01:34:53.300 --> 01:34:53.699
Mm hmm.

01:34:53.944 --> 01:35:01.385
for yourself and thinking I'm, I'm not lazy if I'm sitting down, I'm not a shit mum if I haven't done their spellings and I, you know, it's finding that

01:35:01.470 --> 01:35:01.600
Mm hmm.

01:35:01.944 --> 01:35:02.465
and the balance.

01:35:03.614 --> 01:35:05.984
Now, just before I let you go, because I'm

01:35:06.220 --> 01:35:06.930
No, that's okay.

01:35:06.994 --> 01:35:17.595
quite a long time because I just keep So we are recording this today on Remembrance Sunday in the UK and I took the children up into our village this morning.

01:35:17.595 --> 01:35:33.154
There was a very small parade and some flags and lots of sort of older gentlemen actually with medals on and it's quite an emotive day and we think a lot about the people that we've lost and tomorrow is the 11th of the 11th and that's your Veterans Day.

01:35:33.154 --> 01:35:33.600
So that's.

01:35:40.000 --> 01:35:42.284
I don't, I don't know what it's like over there, but.

01:35:42.595 --> 01:35:44.064
What would you like to see done?

01:35:44.064 --> 01:35:58.524
Because I'm wondering if there's all this kind of celebration and pomp and ceremony on this one or two days in a year, but the rest of the time people perhaps tend not to think about the veterans and the people that might be struggling with PTSD.

01:35:58.925 --> 01:36:03.694
And I'm really wondering what you'd like to see happen or if you're seeing any good changes going

01:36:03.994 --> 01:36:15.335
You know, I think over the years, you know, as we've drifted further away from being involved in military conflicts overseas, the patriotism definitely starts to cease a little bit.

01:36:15.625 --> 01:36:21.805
Um, as you're aware, uh, the United States is in quite a turmoil right now with the elections that just happened.

01:36:22.225 --> 01:36:24.795
Um, and, you know, there's definitely a huge divide.

01:36:24.824 --> 01:36:28.284
And I think the one thing that I would love to see is.

01:36:29.034 --> 01:36:40.800
Our citizens are really good about thanking veterans, and that's great, you know, like, to say thank you to a veteran, but honestly, like, take it a step further.

01:36:40.859 --> 01:36:54.680
So whether it's supporting veteran owned businesses, um, you know, or, or supporting a veteran, um, veteran organization that, like, helps other veterans, um, I, I really try to encourage people, like, they say, like, well, I don't know what to do.

01:36:54.800 --> 01:37:01.210
Like, honestly, if you have a local, um, VFW chapter, you know, or, uh, American Legion.

01:37:01.609 --> 01:37:07.149
Um, you know, even just making a, a, a cash donation can help, um, you know,

01:37:08.444 --> 01:37:11.425
And at this time of year you can do it instead of sending Christmas cards, right?

01:37:11.465 --> 01:37:15.675
Because, I don't know what the cost of stamps is in the US, but over here it's extortionate.

01:37:16.095 --> 01:37:21.845
So we now, we tend, I mean I tend to take a cheesy family photo and send it, and then I'll make a donation.

01:37:21.845 --> 01:37:25.505
I often make a donation to the Lifeboat charity because they looked so hard to find Ben.

01:37:25.914 --> 01:37:29.055
But then last year we did it for bowel cancer because that was how John's wife died.

01:37:29.055 --> 01:37:33.385
So you can find a way of sending a donation without it having to impact

01:37:33.739 --> 01:37:34.149
Right.

01:37:34.449 --> 01:37:34.850
Right.

01:37:34.970 --> 01:37:35.300
Right.

01:37:35.300 --> 01:37:37.140
And I think that goes a lot further.

01:37:37.420 --> 01:37:41.789
Um, you know, but like, and then, like I said, supporting like veteran owned businesses.

01:37:41.789 --> 01:37:45.199
So, you know, like I tell people all the time, if you really want to thank me, buy my books.

01:37:45.199 --> 01:37:46.605
You know what I mean?

01:37:46.605 --> 01:37:47.168
Like, if

01:37:47.305 --> 01:37:48.435
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

01:37:48.460 --> 01:37:49.619
veterans, then support.

01:37:49.954 --> 01:37:51.175
Veterans that have businesses.

01:37:51.475 --> 01:37:58.484
Um, you know, I have a, you know, what's really cool about my books too is like, um, the, the graphics are done by another combat veteran.

01:37:58.784 --> 01:38:04.564
Um, and then the tattoo that Emily has, I have it too on my arm and I had a veteran tattoo it.

01:38:04.574 --> 01:38:12.774
So like, when I say like, I specifically like look for veteran owned businesses to work with, like, that's really important to me as a veteran.

01:38:12.774 --> 01:38:17.475
So if people are watching this and they're like, I want to support veterans, that's how you do it.

01:38:19.645 --> 01:38:20.135
Yeah.

01:38:21.835 --> 01:38:42.850
And you see a lot of stuff sometimes on social media about how celebrity will launch a product and we'll all rush and buy it but maybe support your friend that's trying to earn a little extra income and in in fact John was just saying the other day that he'd like to set up some sort of Facebook community for Widows so that we can, I don't know, say I need some help with my books but I like financial books when I I'm not making any money from it.

01:38:43.289 --> 01:38:45.300
Then I say, oh, is anybody a bookkeeper?

01:38:45.590 --> 01:38:49.779
And by, and you sort of create this network where you help each other out.

01:38:49.789 --> 01:38:55.500
Because it's, there's a term grief sherpa, which was used by one of my American guests actually.

01:38:55.869 --> 01:38:59.800
And I think in much the same way that applies to being an ex, a veteran.

01:38:59.810 --> 01:39:01.875
Because you know what it's like.

01:39:02.074 --> 01:39:04.715
So you want to help other people as they navigate through.

01:39:04.715 --> 01:39:09.034
And over here, the, the, you know, there's an enormous, enormous issue.

01:39:09.135 --> 01:39:12.295
Lots of our veterans are homeless or have addiction problems.

01:39:12.755 --> 01:39:14.994
And we, we, we don't have enough support for them.

01:39:14.994 --> 01:39:15.975
And I'm not, I don't know

01:39:16.215 --> 01:39:16.645
Mm hmm.

01:39:16.654 --> 01:39:20.555
to talk about it in depth, but I do know that the support is woefully lacking still.

01:39:21.125 --> 01:39:26.375
And it just feels like the expectation on you to go out and to put your life on the line.

01:39:27.329 --> 01:39:37.430
But then there's not so much care when you come home, um, and unless you've got the resources or the the willing as well to to do it yourself, you can be a little bit left out in the,

01:39:37.574 --> 01:39:37.914
Yeah.

01:39:37.975 --> 01:39:42.505
I would say homeless, uh, veterans is a huge, uh, epidemic in our country.

01:39:42.774 --> 01:39:52.765
Um, yes, the drugs, and I, I touch on that in my books because it was really important to me to, to educate people on just how badly, and a lot of drug abuse starts in the military.

01:39:52.765 --> 01:39:52.814
Yeah.

01:39:52.814 --> 01:39:52.829
Absolutely.

01:39:53.100 --> 01:40:01.960
You know, it starts whether you actively are doing drugs or you start because you are on pain pills and so that, you know, escalates to other things.

01:40:02.319 --> 01:40:07.970
Um, but I've time and time again, when people read my books, they tell me I had no clue.

01:40:07.970 --> 01:40:10.210
This is like what happens to when they come home.

01:40:10.619 --> 01:40:18.220
And so I feel like my calling really is, I have to educate people because, you know, there's this stigma.

01:40:18.220 --> 01:40:25.715
Uh, But it's never going to go away if people don't share their personal experiences or fictional experiences to replicate it, you know?

01:40:25.935 --> 01:40:31.185
Um, how can I ever expect a civilian to understand if they don't know?

01:40:31.225 --> 01:40:32.425
Like, you don't know what you don't know.

01:40:32.814 --> 01:40:33.029
Um,

01:40:34.949 --> 01:40:37.529
and you can't possibly know what it's like to be at war.

01:40:37.539 --> 01:40:40.265
you you can't fathom that sort of living

01:40:40.524 --> 01:40:42.395
And I wouldn't want people to, you know?

01:40:42.425 --> 01:40:51.845
Like, that, and that's the, that's, that's the, that is the burden of war, um, is that, you know, we, we know that as soldiers, we don't want our family members to ever have to go through that.

01:40:51.854 --> 01:40:53.354
So we take that on ourselves.

01:40:53.824 --> 01:41:04.345
But there still is some level of knowledge and understanding that needs to come with that so that the family and friends and strangers can have a level of empathy to be able to help us.

01:41:08.449 --> 01:41:11.789
Well, Adele, that has been fascinating.

01:41:12.039 --> 01:41:12.319
Like,

01:41:12.375 --> 01:41:12.835
Aw, yay.

01:41:12.949 --> 01:41:14.069
genuinely, fascinating.

01:41:14.600 --> 01:41:18.060
I, I knew so little and I have learned so much.

01:41:18.180 --> 01:41:19.550
So, thank you so

01:41:19.675 --> 01:41:20.284
You're welcome.

01:41:20.409 --> 01:41:22.130
on and sharing your story with me today.

01:41:22.130 --> 01:41:23.600
I really am most grateful.

01:41:23.979 --> 01:41:26.739
Is there anything that you wanted to add that I haven't asked you?

01:41:26.739 --> 01:41:27.640
I'll just check before

01:41:27.704 --> 01:41:28.465
don't think so.

01:41:28.515 --> 01:41:30.114
I think I think, yeah, we've talked a lot.

01:41:30.225 --> 01:41:30.574
Yeah.

01:41:30.649 --> 01:41:31.159
right on the

01:41:31.255 --> 01:41:32.864
Thank you so much for this opportunity.

01:41:33.369 --> 01:41:35.630
you come on again! Maybe you come on again.

01:41:36.039 --> 01:41:38.079
And I genuinely am going to buy your books.

01:41:38.079 --> 01:41:39.949
I'm not just paying lip service to you, I am.

01:41:39.949 --> 01:41:41.840
Because that's one of the ways I like to help people.

01:41:42.039 --> 01:41:44.210
If anybody I know writes a book, I will try and buy a copy.

01:41:44.279 --> 01:41:51.340
Or I will buy a copy of it, because having now, being in the process of doing it myself, I now realise that it's no mean

01:41:51.375 --> 01:41:53.885
Well, and I will full disclosure, I am self published.

01:41:53.885 --> 01:41:55.255
So I know they're not perfect.

01:41:55.324 --> 01:42:00.204
Uh, they, I like to say they're raw, um, which is like, I think it adds to it.

01:42:00.234 --> 01:42:11.265
But, um, so just, just be kind to me because I do know there are some, uh, if anybody out there reads them, I know there are some, you know, minor errors in the first two books, like typos and things, but I like to point it out ahead of time.

01:42:11.265 --> 01:42:12.265
Like I'm just going to call it out.

01:42:12.935 --> 01:42:13.475
So that way.

01:42:14.305 --> 01:42:19.194
I read so fast that you could probably call the characters different names and I wouldn't notice.

01:42:19.225 --> 01:42:22.095
I will read a book in like three hours and have no clue what happened.

01:42:22.095 --> 01:42:24.805
It's, but that's another way I run away from my feelings.

01:42:24.944 --> 01:42:27.380
It's, if I'm not scrolling my phone or, you know.

01:42:27.520 --> 01:42:28.960
I'm doing something in the house, I'll read.

01:42:29.569 --> 01:42:32.579
But anyway, I'm going to finish this because otherwise I'm going to be here for hours talking to you.

01:42:33.069 --> 01:42:38.529
Anyway, just a final thank you for coming on and it's been an absolute honour to, it was an honour to meet you and it's

01:42:38.595 --> 01:42:39.625
And it was an honor to meet you too.

01:42:39.625 --> 01:42:40.154
Thank you.

01:42:42.164 --> 01:42:44.024
next time, see you next year in Michigan.

01:42:45.385 --> 01:42:53.824
And for anybody who is listening today and has perhaps been affected by Adele's story or would like to know a little bit more, you can reach out to me, um, on Instagram.

01:42:54.104 --> 01:42:58.925
You can find me, um, I'm on, as Rosie Gilmoss on Instagram at the moment is probably the best way.

01:42:59.335 --> 01:43:01.904
Uh, and if you've got questions for Adele, I'm happy to pass them on to her.

01:43:01.904 --> 01:43:04.265
She might not answer, but I'll certainly pass them on.

01:43:04.765 --> 01:43:08.814
Um, but for everybody else out there, lots of love and I will be back with you soon.

01:43:08.814 --> 01:43:09.125
Thank you.