July 18, 2024

S1 - EP5 - MindJam: Gaming for Mental Health and Neurodiversity with Dan Clark

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S1 - EP5 - MindJam: Gaming for Mental Health and Neurodiversity with Dan Clark
S1 - EP5 - MindJam: Gaming for Mental Health and Neurodiversity with Dan Clark
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Season 1

In this episode, Rosie Gill-Moss speaks with Dan Clark, founder of MindJam, a unique mentoring service that uses video games to support neurodivergent children. Dan shares how gaming can help kids manage anxiety, trauma, and autistic burnout, and how it builds trust and emotional resilience. Through MindJam, children who struggle in traditional settings find a safe and therapeutic space to connect and grow.

Key Highlights:

  • How video games can help neurodivergent children thrive
  • The impact of gaming on emotional well-being and communication
  • How MindJam mentors use games like Minecraft and Roblox to foster trust and teach real-life social skills

Why You Should Listen:
If you're curious about how gaming can be more than just entertainment—especially for neurodivergent children—this episode is a must-listen. Whether you're a parent, teacher, or gamer, Dan’s insights into how MindJam transforms children's lives will open your eyes to the powerful role gaming can play in mental health.

Resources:
Website : https://mindjam.org.uk/


Connect with the show
Web : https://www.chatty-af.com/
Instagram : @chatty_af_podcast and @rosie_gill_moss

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Disclaimers: The content of this podcast is for informational purposes only. The experiences and opinions expressed by the guest are personal and should not be taken as general advice. Listeners are encouraged to seek professional support for similar issues. The producers and host are not responsible for any actions taken based on the information provided in this episode.

Chapters

00:00 - Introduction to MindJam and its Purpose

03:00 - The Impact of MindJam on Children's Lives

06:32 - Addressing Concerns and Misconceptions

13:48 - The Benefits of Gaming and Learning Opportunities

23:14 - The Benefits of Gaming for Neurodivergent Individuals

25:19 - MindJam: Bridging the Gap Between Education and Therapy

29:22 - Building Trust and Communication in a Gaming Environment

34:39 - Challenges in the Education System for Neurodivergent Children

44:37 - Introduction to MindJam and the Power of Gaming

51:07 - MindJam's Mission to Smash the System

56:18 - The Importance of Play and Gaming

01:03:00 - Conclusion and Embracing the Benefits of Gaming

Transcript
WEBVTT

00:00:05.000 --> 00:00:13.711
Hello, and welcome back . You're here with me Rosie Gill-Moss and today's interview is with the founder of a company called Mindjam.

00:00:14.605 --> 00:00:20.356
Dan Clark is a father and he was a teacher, , and he specialised in music.

00:00:20.935 --> 00:00:32.905
During the pandemic, , he realised that there was a shortage, , a gap for some, for access to support for children, in particular neurodivergent children who were adversely affected by the pandemic.

00:00:33.875 --> 00:00:34.515
Weren’t we all right.

00:00:35.345 --> 00:00:48.026
So Dan has come on to talk to me and , I'm going to, you know, tell you before I actually get him on the microphone that he was nominated in 2021 for um, a BAFTA.

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for mentor of the year.

00:00:50.045 --> 00:00:53.835
So this guy is, he's doing a lot of good out there in the world.

00:00:53.915 --> 00:00:58.125
And, um, even just researching him, I found out things that I didn't know.

00:00:58.155 --> 00:01:02.085
I didn't know that gaming is really good for preventing and helping autistic burnout.

00:01:02.756 --> 00:01:08.775
Um, my autistic son games a lot and I have to say, you know, I'm, you know, is he gaming too much?

00:01:08.775 --> 00:01:09.846
What's he being exposed to?

00:01:09.846 --> 00:01:16.010
And actually I think if they're playing age appropriate games from what I've, just learned in the research I've done ahead of this interview.

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Perhaps we can all stop using it to stick to beat ourselves with.

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Wouldn't that be nice?

00:01:20.620 --> 00:01:34.480
Anyway, , the next voices you're going to hear will be me and Dan Clark, as I get to know him a bit better, get to find out what his, , his, his motives were for starting Mindjam, because I know that he has personal reasons for wanting to set it up as well.

00:01:35.031 --> 00:01:38.200
Um, I can't tell you what we talk about because I haven't recorded it yet.

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So you're going to have to sit back and listen.

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Enjoy.

00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:44.471
Hello, and welcome back You're here with me, that's Rosie.

00:01:44.811 --> 00:01:50.870
And joining me today, I've got Dan Clark, who is the founder of a gaming What do you call it?

00:01:50.870 --> 00:01:53.061
Is it like a therapy or a mentoring service?

00:01:53.061 --> 00:01:54.620
Yeah.

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emotional support and mentoring.

00:01:56.811 --> 00:01:58.301
it's because it's not a formal thing.

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Sorry, I said we'd go off on tangents.

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I haven't even introduced you properly and we're off on one.

00:02:02.450 --> 00:02:29.346
It's called Mind Jam and it is primarily devised to support particularly neurodivergent children and children who might be suffering with trauma or anxiety and Dan set this up in lockdown so it's really supported children through the pandemic and I came across it when Hector was really struggling in year five and Traditional therapy, particularly for children who are neurodivergent, is quite difficult.

00:02:29.425 --> 00:02:37.725
I find it quite difficult to go and sit face to face, head on, eye contact, you know, already we've got an issue here, and talk about difficult things.

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And for children, and particularly neurodivergent children, that is, that's exacerbated.

00:02:42.955 --> 00:02:48.695
So I used to be, you know, my mum used to take me for drives and get me to talk to her, no escape, no eye contact.

00:02:48.735 --> 00:02:52.506
And I think this is almost like the modern, version of that in a way.

00:02:52.515 --> 00:03:01.955
It's, it's giving children a way that they can talk about their emotions whilst they are, I don't know if this is a natural term, but I like to call it distracted communicating.

00:03:02.165 --> 00:03:03.536
So they're doing something else.

00:03:04.600 --> 00:03:04.881
yeah.

00:03:05.320 --> 00:03:17.836
Basically what it is, I mean, it's um, I'll tell you more about my history in a minute, but it's that, it's joining something that they absolutely love, so instantly, um, They don't have to talk about themselves.

00:03:17.836 --> 00:03:20.816
They can talk about Minecraft, Fortnite, whatever game it is.

00:03:20.876 --> 00:03:22.626
And you've got that connection.

00:03:22.735 --> 00:03:40.036
So it is that distraction that then you can form that trust and bond, um, that then, you know, they can hopefully talk about things or just have a trusted person that if anytimes they want to think about chatting about issues or themselves or the future, they've got somebody that they

00:03:40.105 --> 00:03:41.056
And that's it, isn't it?

00:03:41.596 --> 00:03:48.165
We've, you know, lots of children do have a, you know, I like to think I'm quite a supportive parent, and we've got, you know, we talk about our feelings a lot.

00:03:48.765 --> 00:03:52.906
But we all know that sometimes you, you don't necessarily want to talk to a parent or a teacher.

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It's having somebody that's that one step removed.

00:03:55.515 --> 00:03:57.346
And I've got to be honest with you, Dan.

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If you say to somebody, Oh, my son games with a, and sorry Dan, I'm going to say middle aged man, twice a week in his room.

00:04:05.366 --> 00:04:05.865
That's it.

00:04:06.156 --> 00:04:07.276
I've never met this guy.

00:04:07.366 --> 00:04:19.415
People will be like, oh, that sounds slightly suspicious, but actually it's so, I mean, they're obviously DBS cleared and very well trained, but also you get a transcript of the conversation if you want to read it, don't you?

00:04:19.425 --> 00:04:33.331
I mean, you know, we have a door open policy in our house anyway, but it's, it's just, For Hector, from, and I can only speak from our personal experience, but I said to you before we came on mic that it's no understatement to say it has changed his life.

00:04:33.620 --> 00:04:40.831
He started off doing half an hour a week, he now does two hours a week, and he, Mondays and Wednesdays are his favourite days of the week.

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He can't wait to come in from school and speak to Darren, and sometimes I think they just game.

00:04:46.261 --> 00:05:01.771
I don't think there's any, you know, groundbreaking revelations are happening, but it's just having that Kind of a friend, but a grown up friend, that you can learn how to And I know one of the things you talk about with gaming is it's learning to navigate real life situations, but in a virtual world.

00:05:01.790 --> 00:05:03.190
So it gives them experience.

00:05:03.930 --> 00:05:04.250
yeah.

00:05:04.250 --> 00:05:10.800
There's so many things in gaming and so many benefits in there that a lot of people don't realize and we're always as parents beating ourselves up,

00:05:10.990 --> 00:05:11.240
Oh my

00:05:11.430 --> 00:05:17.261
because through the media, uh, but, but yeah, sometimes it can just seem like gaming, but there's so much more going on.

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There's that trust and that bond there.

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Uh, and, and just having that shared time with somebody that's not family or, and somebody that doesn't.

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Isn't expecting anything from them.

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You know, we'd put no demands.

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It's completely child led, which is why it works very well with PDA and young people.

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Um, but then we plant seeds, you know, there's always lots actually going on in the background of

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like my therapy, when I think I'm talking about one thing and then she tells me that, No, no, we've been talking about something else.

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It's that, it's using little ways to get into their minds, I

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Yeah.

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And the gaming world's brilliant.

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As I said, there's, there's situations and things you can set up in the gaming world or can happen.

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And you talked about how a character might feel or, or the social situation in games, such as Roblox and things that you can discuss.

00:06:03.136 --> 00:06:17.430
Uh, and you know, for a lot of these young people who've got very low self esteem, self confidence and social confidence, you know, to make them realize that they're super funny, uh, that they're validated, that they're unique and they're amazing, and also that they're not on their own.

00:06:17.490 --> 00:06:20.581
There's loads of people very similar with similar interests.

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It's, yeah, it's so key.

00:06:22.771 --> 00:06:32.721
You've actually made all the goosebumps go off my arm when you say that, because I obviously think that, you know, Hector is amazing and brilliant, but he is now in a specialist provision where he's really doing well.

00:06:32.721 --> 00:07:03.826
But in mainstream school, which so many neurodivergent children are, and, you know, that's not going to change any time soon, unfortunately, um, we, you say, what I saw was you would have, um, particularly boys, you'd have the boys that wanted to play football, you'd or the boys that wanted to do the gaming, but sometimes with, um, sort of as they get older, primary school, into secondary school, the, the, the language, the, um, the friendship fallouts, they can be very difficult for anybody to navigate.

00:07:03.826 --> 00:07:07.776
But again, I'm primarily talking about neurodivergent children because that's my experience.

00:07:07.886 --> 00:07:19.730
So I think, and again, I'm, I'm just kind of hypothesizing here that By playing these games with an adult, or somebody that's, you know, in a position of, um, when I say authority, I mean trust.

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Trust is what I mean.

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Um, they can learn how to navigate these games and what is and isn't appropriate behaviour in them as well.

00:07:26.011 --> 00:07:26.930
yes, definitely.

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I mean, there's a lot of learned behavior from peers.

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And also, I think, again, going back to the negative, views of gaming that it isn't embraced by education or health that much, uh, whereas it should be, and we're, we're at the forefront of trying to push this to them, then they don't discuss in a way that young people would benefit from, uh, how, how they should be acting online, on, in games, and how good gaming is, but how not to be toxic, toxic behavior, none of that's discussed.

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So instead it's, it's gaming's bad for your gaming's evil, you shouldn't be doing that.

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Um, and, And so they're just alienated straight away.

00:08:00.456 --> 00:08:02.065
Yeah, you know the majority of young

00:08:02.110 --> 00:08:03.670
s Sorry, talking over you,

00:08:03.836 --> 00:08:04.406
No, it's okay.

00:08:04.451 --> 00:08:05.581
be my neurodivergence, Sam.

00:08:05.581 --> 00:08:10.310
Um, yeah, it's really difficult on video call as well, isn't it?

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And I think the other thing is, you, again, we, as a parent, so my kids have, what I would say is probably far too much screen time.

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because I never wanted to be that mum, but lockdown in particular was an absolute killer.

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Um, my, my second husband, so it was very, very sick in lockdown as well.

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He was actually in hospital with COVID.

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So it was not a time for me to become an earth mother.

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So I had a very basic role with my eldest son, who's now 14.

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He's probably going to take his GCSEs, GCSEs year early.

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And he did his schoolwork that was set, and then he could game.

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Now, it hasn't impacted him socially, it hasn't impacted him emotionally, and it hasn't impacted up and only in the negative.

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It may have done for the positive, if you believe the research, which I've just read, I mean, wow.

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So, I think this fear that these children, they must be outdoors, they must be participating in sports.

00:09:00.865 --> 00:09:03.306
Yes, they do need to see daylight occasionally.

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I, um, my 14 year old broke up last week.

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Like, you do have to come outside just occasionally.

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But the idea that they're going to become, you know, morbidly obese, isolated weirdos because they play computer games.

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That's just not the case.

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it's not true at all and it is it I think because gaming's It's still relatively new, it's in its infancy, and it hasn't matured so much in the last 15 years, really.

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Uh, but it's still viewed in this really archaic way that we're unsociable, sad hunchbacks, playing these games that are rotting our brains.

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It's, it's exactly how, fiction books were seen a hundred years ago, uh, where they were seen as war people, people's brains, whereas if your young person came home and just read four books in the evening, you'd be taking photos on

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Yeah.

00:09:49.035 --> 00:09:49.946
one day, they'd be like, Oh my

00:09:50.260 --> 00:09:51.990
And was TV when we were kids, wasn't it?

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You'd go square eyed, it'll rot your brains.

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And now, of course, we see things like CBeebies and kids TV as really kind of benign and, oh, it's fine, my kid watches TV, but they don't game.

00:10:01.316 --> 00:10:01.796
Yeah.

00:10:01.926 --> 00:10:02.245
Uh, yeah.

00:10:02.495 --> 00:10:03.375
game is, sorry.

00:10:03.841 --> 00:10:05.671
No, it was just something that popped into my head.

00:10:05.870 --> 00:10:09.191
The other question I did have with regards to that is, games like Fortnite.

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Now, they are aimed at children over 12.

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We all know that children much younger play.

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In fact, I had a call from Hector's school to ask me if I knew that he was playing Fortnite.

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I was like, I kept it off till he was 11.

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I thought I'd done quite well.

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Um, but there was, there was quite a lot of controversy around the kind of addictive nature of it.

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Particularly with young, younger children.

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So, um, Where do you, what's your view on that?

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Is it something, you know, that you would say perhaps they, it's something that they need to be a certain age to be playing or you need to kind of be quite strict on the time limits?

00:10:39.721 --> 00:10:39.921
I'm just

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I think, I think it comes from understanding, and understanding you're a young person, and where they are in gaming, and maturity for that as well.

00:10:47.400 --> 00:10:52.280
Um, you know, Fortnite, um, obviously gets a lot of stick, like Roblox does as well, uh, and that's

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has always been banned in my house I have to say.

00:10:54.321 --> 00:11:07.421
they are, yeah, it's because they're massive platforms, and, you know, yes, you, you, you can have wonderful experiences connecting with young people, or, uh, but also, As in real life, there's undesirables around and you need to be careful of that.

00:11:07.691 --> 00:11:14.980
Um, but yeah, I always think rather than being scared by the media and being like, nope, you can't do it if they really want to do it.

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You can't do it, you know, if you do it in a, in a way that you can do it with them to share the game, you're watching the game.

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You've got much more chance of them opening up to you.

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a situation might appear that they're like this is weird this is weird rather than they're terrified that you're going to ban them from the game because they've told you this thing so then they keep it a secret

00:11:33.750 --> 00:11:35.711
You that's, it's so true.

00:11:36.110 --> 00:11:50.240
yeah i mean personally fortnight has changed a lot um this is another thing um so now it is it's got these ratings but and it's not just the battle royale shooting game now there's a lot it's It's hard to explain, but it's lots of minigames, lots and lots of different games.

00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:54.191
People can create their own games in Fortnite now, and they can be every style.

00:11:54.331 --> 00:11:58.721
Like, there's now Lego in Fortnite, where you can play on Lego worlds, and it's very much like Minecraft.

00:11:59.081 --> 00:12:05.191
Um, yeah, and it's lovely, and it's really nice, and you can have age ratings, so you're not, can't access the older age

00:12:05.566 --> 00:12:07.985
And it's all about a bit of parental control, isn't it?

00:12:07.985 --> 00:12:15.645
I mean, if you were to send your child off to the park like the good old days with, you know, a At lunch and not see them for 12 hours.

00:12:16.625 --> 00:12:25.975
That is seen as kind of quite wholesome and, and But if they were to play Fortnite, and actually you put the parental controls in, We all know kids can navigate around them.

00:12:26.005 --> 00:12:29.875
But I think what you're saying there about having, and again, it's communication, isn't it?

00:12:29.875 --> 00:12:33.875
Saying, okay, This is why I don't want you having this particular bit of Fortnite.

00:12:34.596 --> 00:12:43.260
Because these are the dangers instead of that, you know, kind of, you know, absolutely no, my way or the highway, which let's be honest, if you've got a PDA kid, that that's not going to work.

00:12:43.296 --> 00:12:56.826
Yeah, it's very tricky and if their peers are playing it as well, then it's just like they don't understand and you know, so you can, you know, like I said, I'm not saying that you should allow them if you, if you feel that's wrong and you know you're, you're, but don't be as scared as you think.

00:12:57.206 --> 00:13:17.461
Even, and I know I'll say about Roblox as well, there's so many good, good experiences and things I hear and see when we're doing things and both these games are amazing because they lead on to creative of you can create your own worlds you can create your own games and then so so the almost the sort of education aspect of it is there

00:13:17.905 --> 00:13:21.285
I have to say, I don't know why, but I've always quite liked Minecraft.

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Um, it always feels like a, like a bit like Lego, I suppose.

00:13:25.046 --> 00:13:27.375
And it, and it teaches them the basics of coding, doesn't it?

00:13:27.865 --> 00:13:30.816
But I must say my, um, my youngest daughter, so she's only six.

00:13:30.826 --> 00:13:32.966
So she doesn't have gaming at the moment.

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I'm not coughing because I'm lying.

00:13:35.745 --> 00:13:36.275
I'm just coughing.

00:13:37.576 --> 00:13:37.846
Honest.

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Uh, but she likes to watch them play Minecraft.

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So she will sit and they give her like a dummy control and she.

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I don't know how long we're going to get away with this, but for now it's quite sweet.

00:13:48.916 --> 00:13:53.946
But she had then gone into school, and they must, I think, is it Dungeons that's got the weapons?

00:13:54.961 --> 00:13:55.500
oh we might have

00:13:55.816 --> 00:14:01.587
Yeah, so she'd gone to school, I'm just going to move my microphone, sorry, I think it's just a little bit off.

00:14:01.587 --> 00:14:10.890
And, um, she had, uh, Told us in year three that she had weapons, and of course I then get the walk of shame, you know, at the school where the teacher's walking towards you.

00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:22.931
And it wasn't her usual teacher who I think would have known that we don't have weapons in our house, but I know an age appropriate content, and I was like, oh my god, it was a bit of Minecraft, you know, some of the things these kids are exposed to.

00:14:23.520 --> 00:14:32.671
But it shows the stigma that's still attached to online gaming, because had she picked up a Dungeons Dragons book or something, also full of weapons, she would have known that we don't have weapons.

00:14:33.255 --> 00:14:35.654
Yeah.

00:14:35.676 --> 00:14:42.025
The Hobbit or something like that, it's, you know, it's weapons fighting and, know, children are fascinated by that as well.

00:14:42.056 --> 00:14:43.716
And have been for all time, haven't they?

00:14:43.745 --> 00:14:46.336
They, you know, it's like, oh, I'm not going to let my boys have guns.

00:14:46.395 --> 00:14:48.846
They will find a twig and make it a gun.

00:14:49.495 --> 00:14:58.326
Yeah, I mean, like I say, I'm not condoning this for everyone in the household, but I've got a young person and he loves War games, you know, he loves loves the call of duty war thunder.

00:14:58.566 --> 00:15:13.245
There's all the but he is fascinated by the history So the history of the tanks, he knows everything about world war one and world war two and you know These games have been so beneficial on his education He can tell me everything about you know, who built what tank when it was built.

00:15:13.296 --> 00:15:13.525
I mean,

00:15:13.566 --> 00:15:15.326
How very on brand as well.

00:15:15.946 --> 00:15:17.025
Yeah, exactly.

00:15:18.375 --> 00:15:21.255
. So, um, yeah, so, so yeah, it is tricky.

00:15:21.255 --> 00:15:25.515
I know, navigating that and, but yeah, as you said about Minecraft, I love Minecraft.

00:15:25.546 --> 00:15:27.941
It is possibly my favorite game, I think, uh,

00:15:27.966 --> 00:15:34.846
And Hector sort of went off it because it wasn't cool at school, it was Fortnite and another one, I can't remember what the other one was.

00:15:35.475 --> 00:15:45.576
And I could tell that he did secretly like it, but he sort of didn't want to be teased and I thought again, that's like, The social, trying to fit into those social norms.

00:15:45.605 --> 00:15:50.495
And then when he started working with Darren, he's sort of been, you know, maybe we'll have a little go at Minecraft.

00:15:50.495 --> 00:15:52.686
And now I think it's one of their, one of their favourite games.

00:15:53.196 --> 00:15:55.155
And it's just reignited that interest.

00:15:55.155 --> 00:15:57.285
And Hector likes something called Yu Gi Oh cards.

00:15:57.285 --> 00:16:00.865
And poor Darren, I think he has to listen quite a lot about Yu Gi Oh cards.

00:16:00.916 --> 00:16:04.005
But, so you guys end up learning from the children as well.

00:16:04.336 --> 00:16:05.015
we love it.

00:16:05.015 --> 00:16:05.586
I mean, that's it.

00:16:05.625 --> 00:16:08.936
We were a bunch of nerds anyway, so they could love all that sort of stuff.

00:16:08.936 --> 00:16:11.086
I mean, that's half part of all our mentors.

00:16:11.096 --> 00:16:16.995
So we can connect in that special way and we understand and we're, you know, not just listening politely.

00:16:16.995 --> 00:16:17.245
We're

00:16:17.505 --> 00:16:18.515
You're actually engaging.

00:16:18.775 --> 00:16:19.145
Yeah.

00:16:19.576 --> 00:16:19.785
Uh,

00:16:20.135 --> 00:16:22.255
And actually, I just, I didn't even read out your thing.

00:16:22.296 --> 00:16:25.166
You've got a hundred mentors working for you or thereabouts.

00:16:25.166 --> 00:16:35.285
I know the exact figure won't be exactly that and supporting over 2000 young people, which is incredible because we've, I've totally gone off timeline of what I'd written my notes here.

00:16:35.285 --> 00:16:41.206
But so actually I'm going to take you back and just, I'm going to just ask you what you did before it and what prompted you to set up Mindjam if you don't mind.

00:16:41.686 --> 00:16:42.785
Yeah, no problem at all.

00:16:42.785 --> 00:16:43.076
Yeah.

00:16:43.076 --> 00:16:48.155
So, so, um, before, before MindJob started, really MindJob was locked down.

00:16:48.265 --> 00:16:50.105
That's what started, but I'm a teacher.

00:16:50.186 --> 00:16:52.066
I've taught ICT and music.

00:16:52.326 --> 00:16:57.255
Um, and used to do a lot of one to one sessions, working with special education needs young people.

00:16:57.676 --> 00:17:01.336
I'm also a father to two neurodivergent young people as well.

00:17:01.395 --> 00:17:05.286
And, uh, through that, our main way that we connected is gaming.

00:17:05.925 --> 00:17:06.236
Yeah.

00:17:06.336 --> 00:17:09.846
It's all, you know, where other things are difficult as a whole family.

00:17:09.846 --> 00:17:14.066
We can game together from the other days of playing Mario on the Wii U to Minecraft.

00:17:15.266 --> 00:17:19.736
And then, then now, you know, obviously if I'm more complex, my children are 17 and 14 now.

00:17:19.955 --> 00:17:23.826
So will they sit in their rooms and you'll sit in the living room and you're all gaming in the house

00:17:23.855 --> 00:17:24.816
yeah, yeah,

00:17:24.915 --> 00:17:26.286
My friend was saying her kids do that.

00:17:26.935 --> 00:17:28.986
Yeah, I mean, we play board games and things as well.

00:17:28.986 --> 00:17:33.726
But we play, you know, even on Roblox, we play UNO, all together as a family, on Roblox.

00:17:34.286 --> 00:17:35.175
And it's, you know, it's all

00:17:35.286 --> 00:17:38.605
I'm writing this down actually because I finally learned how to play Uno on holiday.

00:17:39.976 --> 00:17:41.385
a bit of PDA around rules.

00:17:41.385 --> 00:17:42.855
I don't like to learn rules for games.

00:17:43.125 --> 00:17:49.535
Yeah, that's another thing about games, uh, rather than board games is a game video games have the rules already set in.

00:17:49.536 --> 00:17:51.695
So if you play Monopoly on a video, it's much

00:17:51.796 --> 00:17:52.465
You can't cheat.

00:17:52.746 --> 00:17:54.365
because yeah, no one can cheat.

00:17:54.375 --> 00:17:56.556
You've got no arguments against the rules, but yeah.

00:17:56.556 --> 00:18:04.655
So, but, you know, through my own family and understanding autism and ADHD, um, PDA, um, but also in school.

00:18:05.310 --> 00:18:12.250
When there's only one to one sessions, because I've got a love of gaming, we'd get into these chats about gaming and their eyes would light up.

00:18:12.250 --> 00:18:22.990
They'd suddenly come alive and be so animated and chatting to me and then, in a way, it'd be quite heartbreaking that we'd go, Yeah, we'd better get back to ticking the boxes that we have to tick for school and things like that.

00:18:23.040 --> 00:18:25.570
So I then set up an after school club.

00:18:25.980 --> 00:18:30.471
Um, I was at various schools at that time and at each school we did an after school gaming club.

00:18:30.760 --> 00:18:34.911
Uh, where we could look into making games, but also it was just a shared experience of gaming.

00:18:35.280 --> 00:18:40.901
Uh, and again, it was amazing, really successful, but also just seeing how much benefit the young people were getting.

00:18:41.570 --> 00:18:54.651
And then, pandemic happened, so obviously everything like that's up, but I was still in contact with a few parents and they were like, the child's missing that time with you, I wondered whether you'd be able to just join them in a game and do that.

00:18:54.651 --> 00:18:55.371
And it was something like.

00:18:56.076 --> 00:18:57.185
This is something here.

00:18:57.195 --> 00:18:58.645
And I remember just, um,

00:18:58.826 --> 00:19:01.230
that real moment where you get the Yeah.

00:19:01.615 --> 00:19:06.016
I always looked online and talked to my wife and said, I don't think anybody does this.

00:19:06.056 --> 00:19:06.895
Is this something?

00:19:06.915 --> 00:19:10.185
And, you know, obviously I had that weird imposter syndrome feeling, but,

00:19:10.401 --> 00:19:11.371
Yeah, me too, right?

00:19:11.506 --> 00:19:16.185
yeah, yeah, well, started up and honestly, and talk with parents.

00:19:16.185 --> 00:19:30.695
And I think being a parent myself and, you Knowing the exact situation, my daughter hasn't been in school, my son managed to make it through, but it's been hard, um, you know, knowing the whole situation, how secondary school life especially is so difficult and I

00:19:30.711 --> 00:19:34.260
It was when we were kids, Dan, I think it's even now I

00:19:34.586 --> 00:19:37.086
it's, it's not changed, that's the problem, it's not

00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:40.221
They can get you in more places, that's the difference, isn't it?

00:19:40.375 --> 00:19:42.955
a difficult one, but, but yeah, having that

00:19:43.010 --> 00:19:44.320
a podcast on this, Dan, actually.

00:19:44.461 --> 00:19:48.010
I did one on the situation in studying education, just dropping that in

00:19:48.655 --> 00:19:50.435
Good segue into that one as well.

00:19:50.665 --> 00:19:59.296
Um, yeah, so it started this up and, um, and yeah, it's just snowballed to the point where I was really keen, knew it, knew it was something good.

00:19:59.375 --> 00:20:04.945
And just that thing where there's no demands, but we can look into things so they can feed off you and go.

00:20:04.996 --> 00:20:05.976
I've always wanted to.

00:20:06.556 --> 00:20:08.665
Mods Pokemon in it.

00:20:08.756 --> 00:20:09.145
Brilliant.

00:20:09.175 --> 00:20:12.786
Let's have a look together And we do it in that way rather than that hierarchy in there.

00:20:13.016 --> 00:20:13.556
Please sir.

00:20:13.586 --> 00:20:14.566
Can I do this

00:20:14.776 --> 00:20:16.465
it's like you're their friend.

00:20:16.476 --> 00:20:17.576
That's exactly what it's like.

00:20:17.576 --> 00:20:20.226
It's like Hector really does think of Darren as his friend.

00:20:20.346 --> 00:20:21.766
Hmm that's just really sweet.

00:20:22.145 --> 00:20:23.875
So just, so it was just you at first.

00:20:23.905 --> 00:20:30.526
So you, excuse me, so you, you've got your client base probably from, from former pupils or pupils at the,

00:20:30.980 --> 00:20:43.810
we started off, but it's more from word of mouth through mainly, uh, parent groups, um, talk to talk about us, but very quickly, um, uh, Essex Council got in touch first and really love what was doing.

00:20:43.810 --> 00:20:55.480
See if I could work with their young people and that very quickly got to a stage where I could work, you know, tickle the boxes for them, the quality assurances, make sure we're, you know, high end, well checked company.

00:20:55.500 --> 00:21:01.955
And then that's, you know, It's still, still just me, and then, and then we started, I was like, this is too big for me.

00:21:02.306 --> 00:21:06.665
One, one thing I'd done before lockdown was running a music tuition agency.

00:21:06.685 --> 00:21:09.776
So I knew how to pull in other people.

00:21:10.036 --> 00:21:14.506
Um, you know, so, so then, uh, yeah, we started, started to expand it.

00:21:14.506 --> 00:21:15.875
It was like, I can't just do this myself.

00:21:15.875 --> 00:21:17.465
This is, I wait and this is growing.

00:21:17.796 --> 00:21:27.776
Uh, and it started with, you know, taking on about four or five mentors, but yeah, over the four years, Uh, first one was, uh, Leo, who's someone I used to teach with.

00:21:27.976 --> 00:21:35.530
So, it was, you know, great, and he was, uh, he was I messaged he was like, I've got this mad idea, mate, I don't know if you'd be interested, because

00:21:35.601 --> 00:21:37.471
best start with, I've got a bad idea.

00:21:38.381 --> 00:21:57.546
we, we used to talk about gaming all the time, so I knew he had this love of gaming, um, yeah, and then we've just expanded, but, you know, the one thing, all our mentors must have worked professionally with young people, and especially, yes, SEN young people, uh, and then also have a love and passion for gaming, because you cannot you know, Fake that and the would see straight through it.

00:21:57.635 --> 00:22:10.336
Um, they're the two main things so all all of our mentors work with that, but now we've Such broad now that we offer a load of in house training as well, of course from safeguarding all the way through to game design and everything else

00:22:10.421 --> 00:22:19.401
Because I guess actually sometimes, because your mentors are essentially in the child's home, might be something that they witness or overhear

00:22:19.461 --> 00:22:21.375
hmm

00:22:21.560 --> 00:22:24.540
so presumably you have a sort of system in place for that.

00:22:24.756 --> 00:22:35.486
Yeah, we work exactly the same as as a school so, uh, you know, we've got a full time safeguarding lead called vicky and she's She's more trained than most of the people she talks to in L.

00:22:35.486 --> 00:22:35.625
A.

00:22:35.675 --> 00:22:35.986
to be honest.

00:22:35.986 --> 00:22:40.046
And um, you know, and, and so, you know, and that's nice for our mentors as well.

00:22:40.046 --> 00:22:41.786
Just to know that they, they've got someone

00:22:41.796 --> 00:22:43.276
Well, they need protection as well.

00:22:43.346 --> 00:22:50.476
This is the other thing I'm thinking is because, um, and we know that teachers are quite vulnerable, um, and particularly male teachers often.

00:22:50.905 --> 00:22:54.836
Um, you know, you often say nobody would want to be a male teacher in a girl's school these days.

00:22:54.836 --> 00:22:58.155
And I'm thinking in this situation, your mentors.

00:22:58.276 --> 00:23:05.276
They are making themselves vulnerable, which in turn is a good thing because it helps that, um, the young person open up.

00:23:05.296 --> 00:23:14.695
But they, to protect them from, um, I mean, potentially allegations or, you know, misinterpreted situations, is that why you transcript it?

00:23:14.695 --> 00:23:16.465
Because you use an AAI transcript, don't you?

00:23:16.746 --> 00:23:18.996
Yeah, so we, so we get all that in.

00:23:18.996 --> 00:23:19.976
It's down to the mentor.

00:23:19.986 --> 00:23:22.296
It's the mentor's discretion whether they want to transcript or not.

00:23:22.536 --> 00:23:27.635
You know, we, we obviously have all our safety checks in and all our training in for that purpose.

00:23:27.695 --> 00:23:29.195
But that is down to each one.

00:23:29.236 --> 00:23:31.546
We don't, we don't video them, of course.

00:23:31.786 --> 00:23:34.465
Because a lot of the young people, if they knew that, would be like, No,

00:23:34.601 --> 00:23:34.881
with them.

00:23:35.111 --> 00:23:36.431
Yeah, we get transcript.

00:23:36.441 --> 00:23:39.121
I've never actually read it because I've never had cause for concern.

00:23:39.121 --> 00:23:40.461
And I get a little update from time to time.

00:23:40.461 --> 00:23:46.000
But it's, it's, I guess it's, the transparency of that almost is enough to put your mind at rest anyway.

00:23:46.060 --> 00:23:48.830
Because nobody's going to be that transparent if they've got anything to hide.

00:23:49.256 --> 00:23:50.615
Exactly, exactly.

00:23:50.615 --> 00:23:53.476
And yeah, we're very careful on obviously on all that side of the thing.

00:23:53.476 --> 00:23:56.855
Our main thing is, you know, to make sure the young people are making the right choices.

00:23:56.875 --> 00:23:58.875
You know, we talk about obviously the benefits of gaming.

00:23:58.885 --> 00:24:04.056
We love gaming, but we also do promote healthy gaming safe gaming as well.

00:24:04.566 --> 00:24:17.901
And again, going back to the best thing is that understanding and being on the same wavelength that you're saying gaming is great, then you can discuss why having a break, You know, walking the dog, bouncing on the trampoline, eating right, sleeping right.

00:24:17.931 --> 00:24:19.351
It helps you be a better gamer.

00:24:19.490 --> 00:24:20.891
That's the best way to do it.

00:24:20.971 --> 00:24:25.631
So if, you know, if they're really wanting to be really good at this game or creative in whatever they're doing,

00:24:26.141 --> 00:24:28.151
They need sleep, food and sunshine.

00:24:28.730 --> 00:24:29.621
we all need that.

00:24:29.691 --> 00:24:33.191
Uh, the best e sports players are their athletes.

00:24:33.441 --> 00:24:34.681
They exercise really well.

00:24:34.760 --> 00:24:42.911
Um, you know, and with the advent of VR gaming and Nintendo Switch, there's a lot of active games to do as well, which we try to

00:24:42.915 --> 00:24:57.576
My bedroom is, you know, obviously because I'm the parent, is the biggest in the house and, um, I have quite often walked into my room to find a boy waving their arms around with a VR headset on and completely unaware that I'm there of playing Star Wars.

00:24:57.945 --> 00:25:01.726
And they get quite sweaty actually, I think it probably is quite a good workout.

00:25:01.865 --> 00:25:10.105
there's a, there's a game at the moment on there called guerrilla tag, and I've got a couple of mentees do it and it is the most exhausting thing I've ever played.

00:25:10.526 --> 00:25:12.036
Sorry Darren, I've just written it down.

00:25:12.286 --> 00:25:14.695
Yeah, you'll have a heart attack.

00:25:15.155 --> 00:25:24.185
But honestly, you have to move around with your arms and in, yeah, and you've got to run around tagging people and yeah, it's brilliant, but yeah, all sorts of beats.

00:25:24.236 --> 00:25:26.836
Beat Saber is the biggest VR game and that's still.

00:25:26.836 --> 00:25:27.625
lightspeed say about.

00:25:27.736 --> 00:25:29.266
Yeah, and that is a good workout.

00:25:29.266 --> 00:25:31.296
Yep.

00:25:31.476 --> 00:25:33.596
going around, you know, back and forth on subjects.

00:25:33.596 --> 00:25:42.394
But I'm thinking again about you talking about how it brought your family together, um, and how it's enabled you to kind of communicate and stay close when the children were going through difficult times.

00:25:42.675 --> 00:25:45.766
challenging points in their lives, which every child will.

00:25:46.316 --> 00:25:48.625
Um, and I'm, I'm not a gamer.

00:25:48.715 --> 00:25:50.596
I have no interest in it.

00:25:50.596 --> 00:25:54.395
And I feel a bit mean to Hector that I don't, but I will listen to him.

00:25:54.476 --> 00:25:58.615
And for me, because I'm not a gamer, Darren actually feels that.

00:25:59.320 --> 00:26:03.381
Because, you know, my husband was as a child, but, you know, we, we, we just don't.

00:26:04.121 --> 00:26:09.691
um, he's got that adult that he trusts that wants, that genuinely wants to come and play with him.

00:26:09.701 --> 00:26:20.691
Because, you know, I, I think he's aware that it's a resource that we pay for, but we never say to him, Oh, this costs such and such amount, you know, we don't use it as a, you know, because that would become a demand as well.

00:26:20.691 --> 00:26:27.971
And I want him to know that, and feel that he, that Darren is enjoying spending time with him, which I, I genuinely think they do enjoy

00:26:28.236 --> 00:26:29.546
We, we generally do.

00:26:29.546 --> 00:26:35.865
I mean, obviously we, you know, the question, the fake friend sort of thing can come up, but we, we generally love what we do.

00:26:35.955 --> 00:26:36.756
I mean, how could we not?

00:26:36.756 --> 00:26:39.566
This is like the most rewarding, lovely job anyway.

00:26:39.826 --> 00:26:46.915
Uh, but we, we, we love our time with our young people and, you know, we want to get the best out of them as well and help them realize their potential.

00:26:47.556 --> 00:26:54.935
And you've, so if you start in lockdown, so what, 2020, so four, you've only been going four years and you've already grown to that extent.

00:26:54.945 --> 00:26:56.006
That's incredible.

00:26:56.036 --> 00:26:59.655
And you have, you were nominated for a BAFTA, so tell me a little bit about

00:26:59.881 --> 00:27:01.141
Oh, yeah, this is lovely.

00:27:01.141 --> 00:27:03.401
This, again, was when I was on my own at the start.

00:27:03.401 --> 00:27:12.371
But, uh, yeah, BAFTA do this, uh, Young Game Designers Awards every year, which is a lovely thing, and I try and encourage my mentees to enter, and I know a lot of our mentors do.

00:27:13.911 --> 00:27:17.391
It's a fab, fab award where you can enter, but you don't have to design a game.

00:27:17.401 --> 00:27:22.651
You could also, uh, as in code one, you can also just design it as in paint on pen and paper.

00:27:22.701 --> 00:27:23.381
So it's really

00:27:23.526 --> 00:27:25.726
Okay, so very inclusive as well.

00:27:25.820 --> 00:27:29.240
Yeah, but they had a mentor, mentor of the year category as well.

00:27:29.240 --> 00:27:30.941
And, uh, a lot of my parents and.

00:27:31.240 --> 00:27:33.641
Enter me into that, um, which is lovely.

00:27:33.641 --> 00:27:37.441
And yeah, I was a finalist for that, um, which was a great, great honor.

00:27:37.451 --> 00:27:41.931
And, uh, you know, don't even think that BAFTA will be on that side of it, but BAFTA

00:27:42.076 --> 00:27:43.566
the syndrome with that?

00:27:44.201 --> 00:27:44.570
Yeah.

00:27:44.621 --> 00:27:44.830
Yeah.

00:27:44.830 --> 00:27:45.441
It was huge,

00:27:46.516 --> 00:27:47.766
You haven't got the wrong Dan Clark.

00:27:47.776 --> 00:27:48.695
Different spelling.

00:27:49.141 --> 00:28:11.640
But it was so funny because from that start, We've now been, uh, got a great relationship with BAFTA and we work every year with them um, which is great, you know, obviously we help support and help them understand from the SEN and autistic and neurodivergent side of, of how to, we could enter our young people, um, and we, they get us involved every year in our work.

00:28:12.181 --> 00:28:15.961
Really like this year they had a big open day at the weekend, just being down now.

00:28:16.260 --> 00:28:17.310
And that was fantastic.

00:28:17.310 --> 00:28:21.570
We had parents schools there and we were doing a game concept workshop running

00:28:21.645 --> 00:28:22.435
What was that with Lion Jam?

00:28:22.435 --> 00:28:23.516
I must have missed that.

00:28:24.221 --> 00:28:24.941
Yeah, yeah.

00:28:24.945 --> 00:28:25.990
I put it, it was on the,

00:28:26.645 --> 00:28:29.675
It be in one of the 140, 000 unread emails I've got,

00:28:29.721 --> 00:28:30.320
Yeah.

00:28:30.320 --> 00:28:30.500
Yeah.

00:28:30.500 --> 00:28:30.560
It

00:28:30.645 --> 00:28:31.096
never know.

00:28:31.101 --> 00:28:32.090
Might be there.

00:28:32.090 --> 00:28:34.971
Um, but yeah, we get involved in that, so that's lovely and that's so great.

00:28:34.971 --> 00:28:36.411
But yeah, honestly, the.

00:28:37.391 --> 00:28:38.760
We've never had to advertise.

00:28:38.990 --> 00:28:40.151
It's all word of mouth.

00:28:40.151 --> 00:28:48.320
Our waiting list is huge, but also because, again, I think it comes from being the parent of, for my children, trying to get the best out of them.

00:28:48.320 --> 00:28:51.820
When you see something, you think, oh my god, this is perfect and it's going to help.

00:28:52.101 --> 00:28:55.631
You don't want to be waiting two years to access it, which we know has happened.

00:28:55.951 --> 00:29:00.290
So for me, it's that bit of a push me forward to make sure we can grow with our waiting list.

00:29:00.290 --> 00:29:02.381
So, our waiting list is about three months.

00:29:02.540 --> 00:29:07.871
Um, um, And so there's and we'll keep growing with that as much as we can safely, of course.

00:29:08.171 --> 00:29:09.681
Um, yeah, um,

00:29:09.840 --> 00:29:12.431
Well, I was going to also say I recommended you a friend.

00:29:12.461 --> 00:29:16.381
Um, I mean, it was tragically, this was, um, her husband took his own life.

00:29:16.421 --> 00:29:21.411
Um, and their son is neurodivergent and he unfortunately found him.

00:29:21.851 --> 00:29:24.131
So there was a lot of trauma for this little boy.

00:29:24.221 --> 00:29:29.830
And, um, I mentioned Mindjam and I think I emailed you guys and just explain what had happened.

00:29:30.861 --> 00:29:33.221
And actually he started very, very quickly.

00:29:33.391 --> 00:29:35.191
So, um, I think.

00:29:35.596 --> 00:29:37.885
you know, it isn't always going to be three months.

00:29:37.976 --> 00:29:39.375
There might be circumstances where

00:29:39.540 --> 00:29:42.421
we will look it on a case by case basis.

00:29:42.451 --> 00:29:43.090
Definitely.

00:29:43.226 --> 00:29:46.776
And actually he's doing, he's really, really doing well also.

00:29:46.816 --> 00:29:48.165
And it's,

00:29:48.351 --> 00:29:48.590
that's

00:29:48.806 --> 00:29:53.586
yeah, I, because my eldest son, He had therapy, just, you know, traditional.

00:29:53.596 --> 00:29:56.486
It was Zoom, but traditional as you can be now.

00:29:57.125 --> 00:29:58.635
And he responded really well to that.

00:29:58.635 --> 00:30:00.986
I have, uh, in person therapy.

00:30:01.066 --> 00:30:03.256
My stepdaughter has, um, online therapy.

00:30:03.256 --> 00:30:18.395
And, and then Hector, he was like, I, you know, we tried a couple of therapies, and it just, um, And actually, a lot of therapists, I mean I'm going back six years now, but weren't necessarily trained in neurodiversity, so he'd be up and down, I'm like, no, sit down, hit set, hit sit down.

00:30:18.905 --> 00:30:22.596
Whereas with this, um, you know, not once has he said, oh, I don't want to do it.

00:30:22.605 --> 00:30:30.276
In fact, like I said, we started off with half an hour a week, we're now at two hours, and I need, I do need to go back to Darren with a plan for the summer, because Hector won't want to miss it, he really won't.

00:30:30.635 --> 00:30:48.151
And I just think, what a, what a gift you are giving people, and what a, You, you, personally, you've given me a wonderful gift because you've, you've helped me give my son a safe environment where he can be authentically him, which is such a kind of icky thing to say, but

00:30:49.286 --> 00:30:50.086
Oh, it's so fun.

00:30:50.695 --> 00:30:52.145
It's lovely to hear.

00:30:52.385 --> 00:30:55.016
You know, obviously this is exactly what we're here for.

00:30:55.076 --> 00:30:59.326
Um, and exactly what I recognize in what Mindjam is and why it's bigger than me.

00:30:59.326 --> 00:31:01.875
And I have to get this out to as many people.

00:31:01.915 --> 00:31:03.905
Um, yeah, we are that.

00:31:03.905 --> 00:31:04.984
We are that.

00:31:05.395 --> 00:31:06.135
We have middle

00:31:06.580 --> 00:31:06.730
you've

00:31:07.215 --> 00:31:12.195
people that yeah, you know where we can, but we can help bridge that gap as well.

00:31:12.195 --> 00:31:19.425
So, so it could be bridging to education again if they're out of education could be helping them get that confidence to learn in a way that's right for them.

00:31:19.425 --> 00:31:20.175
It might be online.

00:31:20.175 --> 00:31:24.546
It might be back at the school who knows, but also bridging that gap in case they need.

00:31:25.080 --> 00:31:38.010
You know, extra therapies is something bigger, it might then build that confidence up that they could talk with the counsellor if they need to and that side, but we, we stay in that middle ground so that they trust us, that we're not trying to, we're not,

00:31:38.080 --> 00:31:39.851
we're not, you're not trying to therapize them, I

00:31:39.891 --> 00:31:49.080
we're not tricking them, yeah, into, into certain things, but there is that therapeutic aspect to it anyway, and there is a huge therapeutic aspect to gaming, um, you know,

00:31:49.201 --> 00:31:52.050
I'm just thinking about the trust issue as well.

00:31:52.090 --> 00:32:04.351
So some, again, I have no clue because I don't know this, but there must be a lot of children that have had trauma and perhaps don't trust adults.

00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:12.851
And so we might find opening up to a therapist where you are kind of expected to go in, pretty quick, especially if you've been allocated six sessions, which most people are.

00:32:13.820 --> 00:32:23.211
Whereas if they were able to talk in a much more informal setting, build up trust with an adult, that in turn may enable them to open up in a more professional, therapeutic setting.

00:32:23.296 --> 00:32:24.536
trust more people.

00:32:24.726 --> 00:32:30.316
One thing we are doing, which we have got, but we're expanding it, is we do have a counseling section to Mindjam as well.

00:32:30.986 --> 00:32:34.816
And we're looking into now offering that through Minecraft as well.

00:32:34.816 --> 00:32:36.226
So the counselor works in Minecraft.

00:32:36.455 --> 00:32:47.895
So if that is needed, then you know, the perfect transition for someone who isn't ready to open up will be with a Mindjam mentor, build that confidence and then bring in the counselor if that's needed.

00:32:48.145 --> 00:32:48.566
Um,

00:32:49.980 --> 00:32:50.790
It's amazing.

00:32:51.576 --> 00:32:58.385
it's because I get it, you don't wanna sit there and, you know, meet a stranger and go, right, here's all my problems.

00:32:58.806 --> 00:33:00.155
you know, are, am I weird?

00:33:00.155 --> 00:33:00.726
What's going on?

00:33:00.935 --> 00:33:04.086
you're not ready to, I'm not ready to talk about that with people.

00:33:04.145 --> 00:33:08.115
I'm three years into talk therapy and I don't think we've scratched the surface, if I'm honest.

00:33:08.556 --> 00:33:09.096
yeah.

00:33:09.125 --> 00:33:09.425
Yeah.

00:33:09.425 --> 00:33:15.935
So it, it, you know, it makes sense that, talk about your favorite game, you know, it's just like other people would talk about sport or,

00:33:16.050 --> 00:33:18.351
Exactly, and I think that's the difference, isn't it?

00:33:18.540 --> 00:33:20.560
So, are we not a particularly sporty family?

00:33:20.681 --> 00:33:23.580
We've got, one of my daughters is quite dance based.

00:33:24.151 --> 00:33:28.111
So, I'm a dance mum, which I didn't actually see in my future, but here we go.

00:33:28.570 --> 00:33:40.101
And, um, and so, and I think, again, going back to what we talked about earlier, they, because the boys didn't really want to play team sports, so I wasn't, I mean, obviously I dragged them to swimming lessons and did all the, you the stuff you have to do.

00:33:40.820 --> 00:33:43.931
But I used to feel like I was in some way failing them.

00:33:44.070 --> 00:33:50.540
Um, and actually when I look back on my own childhood, now my brother is neurodivergent as well, and neither of us knew growing up.

00:33:51.736 --> 00:33:54.705
Because we didn't present in, you know, the very typically autistic way.

00:33:55.306 --> 00:34:00.722
And he, he gamed, he loved gaming, um, and, you know, obsessively collected, Bucky, do you remember Bucky O'Hare?

00:34:00.722 --> 00:34:02.118
I remember he was obsessed with those.

00:34:02.317 --> 00:34:03.836
for me, it was reading.

00:34:03.895 --> 00:34:05.955
I used to, you said about reading four books.

00:34:05.955 --> 00:34:08.985
Well, I'm that kid, like I would gone, I used to ask for boxes of books.

00:34:10.085 --> 00:34:24.550
So it's, It's just a different way of having a social interaction, of learning about the world, and I think as long as you are, you know, having a check and making sure they're not talking to some weirdo in Ohio or, you know, taking their clothes off.

00:34:25.871 --> 00:34:26.161
Yeah,

00:34:26.190 --> 00:34:28.161
my, god, there's so much to

00:34:29.010 --> 00:34:30.880
it's important to say it in two ways.

00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:35.210
You know, yes, we've got the online socialness, which is not just gaming, is it?

00:34:35.210 --> 00:34:38.161
It's social media, it's Discord, it's every, it's everything.

00:34:38.161 --> 00:34:38.474
It's everything.

00:34:38.905 --> 00:34:50.985
But then you've got gaming, and you know, and, and gaming is, you know, they can have, find their peers, their friends, have a team, they can also learn dynamics of that, and there will be fallings out and things like that.

00:34:51.081 --> 00:34:59.260
fallings out are important and maybe it's better it happens in that setting because you can learn from it there before it happens in the real

00:34:59.356 --> 00:35:02.425
For, for a neurodivergent person, it's, it's great.

00:35:02.436 --> 00:35:16.405
It presents a way that they can, they can, you know, learn these experiences without being forced into that super embarrassing face to face, you know, um, you know, especially that we don't understand how school can really, really scare someone.

00:35:16.456 --> 00:35:20.826
They're trying to fit in, they're masking, they're exhausting themselves, whereas they can be themselves.

00:35:20.826 --> 00:35:46.275
My daughter, perfect example, she's selective, situationally mute, uh, really struggles to talk to anybody, um, um, and wasn't in school, but When she, when she became 13, we got VR, we got, uh, and there's a app on there called VR Chat, and she could be a, a character she loves from a game called Undertale, and meet other people that were characters from Undertale, and was, you know, chatting with, obviously I was around at

00:35:46.280 --> 00:35:47.041
her people.

00:35:47.445 --> 00:35:59.715
and she could talk, and she learned this confidence that she got there, and she found her people, and that got, got us to be able to, now we, she's in college, uh, doing games at all, and she found her people,

00:35:59.920 --> 00:36:00.590
dad then.

00:36:01.041 --> 00:36:01.490
Oh yeah.

00:36:01.490 --> 00:36:02.181
No, it's amazing.

00:36:02.181 --> 00:36:02.420
Yeah.

00:36:02.420 --> 00:36:03.891
Ama amazing thing.

00:36:03.920 --> 00:36:07.460
Uh, but, you know, we, we bypass secondary school and most of the primary school

00:36:07.481 --> 00:36:08.719
So what did you do?

00:36:08.721 --> 00:36:10.090
Did you use an online school plan?

00:36:10.101 --> 00:36:13.490
I ask this because year five was a really difficult year for Hector.

00:36:13.681 --> 00:36:18.434
And, um, the school, you know, he was in a special resource, special resource, special resource.

00:36:19.835 --> 00:36:22.735
SSR, special resource, oh my god, I talk for a living Dan.

00:36:23.266 --> 00:36:24.746
Special resource provision.

00:36:25.076 --> 00:36:38.340
Um, where, and they'd been really great up until year five when the kind of academic pressure ramps up, and it was, the conversation was, this is not verbatim, they, and I don't want to sound like I'm slowing you off the school, but they, it was emotional or academic.

00:36:38.411 --> 00:36:43.271
Like he, we can't manage both, so we decided that we were going to pull him out for year six.

00:36:44.041 --> 00:37:05.440
And we were going to use, I think we were going to use King's Interhigh because I, I knew of it and I knew people that had used it, and we were going to use Um, and I was, well, hopefully be able to utilize Darren a bit more to, and we were going to get Hector some private therapy and try and get his emotional regulation to a point where he perhaps could go to an autism school, which, because at the time they were saying they wouldn't take him.

00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:10.400
And as a result of this, I ended up getting quite cross with the local school.

00:37:11.010 --> 00:37:16.440
I did a piece of the paper and the head teacher of a specialist provision contacted me through the paper.

00:37:17.721 --> 00:37:18.260
And.

00:37:18.641 --> 00:37:30.280
We fought quite hard because it's a high fund school, because it's an independent school, but it has been worth the battle and he started at the beginning of year six, he will depending on funding, which is up, you know, who

00:37:30.621 --> 00:37:31.010
yep.

00:37:31.471 --> 00:37:37.260
but the difference for him of being seen, of being seen, we can see that you're not, you're, this is not the right place for you.

00:37:37.260 --> 00:37:38.481
We can see that you're struggling.

00:37:38.760 --> 00:37:47.690
What we're not going to do is drag you in, have three teachers pull you off and force you to go into somewhere where it's going to erode everything that is wonderful about you.

00:37:48.351 --> 00:38:14.445
And I think this, this, Like we say, schools still, and you're a former teacher, you know this, they still teach in such a Victorian style, you know, sit down, look at the board, listen to the teacher, and it, it, even with all the knowledge that we have, so many children are just not thriving, um, and I was prepared to take Hector out, and it would have been a massive challenge, I don't know whether we, me and Hector would still be as close as we are now, but it's what, it, It could also have been the making of him.

00:38:14.456 --> 00:38:25.675
And I'm fascinated by people that do decide to educate at home because, you know, you, you do associate it with, um, you know, hemp knitting and, and, but actually it's, it's not anymore.

00:38:25.675 --> 00:38:26.186
Is it?

00:38:26.456 --> 00:38:27.646
Not, not at all.

00:38:27.695 --> 00:38:30.695
And, you know, we did it again for necessity, to be honest with you.

00:38:30.695 --> 00:38:39.056
Now, if there'd been a lovely school for, for a daughter, um, then that would be in her knees and we'd have been happy for it, but it wasn't there.

00:38:39.666 --> 00:38:42.206
And she was getting more and more traumatized.

00:38:42.266 --> 00:38:48.266
Um, and she's got trauma now from it, from teachers that, you know, think she's a cry baby or, you know,

00:38:48.266 --> 00:38:48.856
no

00:38:48.976 --> 00:38:50.974
of, you know, absolutely awful things where she's.

00:38:51.146 --> 00:38:52.135
Completely masking.

00:38:52.175 --> 00:38:53.996
They don't understand autism.

00:38:54.266 --> 00:39:01.275
You know, we live in Lincoln and, and yeah, some of the primary schools here quite, yeah, they're very old fashioned.

00:39:01.286 --> 00:39:03.255
Let's just say that the training's not there.

00:39:03.536 --> 00:39:18.635
Um, so, so the journey to homeschool was, was, we just had to do it and we weren't, you know, I mean, it's funny now because now I'm involved with MindGen, of course, we learn so much more about AHCPs and the Otis packages and we help people with those things as well.

00:39:18.735 --> 00:39:25.346
Do you, I'm just going to write that down because um, EOTUS is something that people just don't know about.

00:39:25.346 --> 00:39:28.365
So for anybody who doesn't know, it's educated other than at school.

00:39:28.835 --> 00:39:32.695
And if, just answer me this Dan, because I don't, I keep meaning to find this out.

00:39:32.706 --> 00:39:35.096
Do you have to have an EHCP to access EOTUS?

00:39:35.400 --> 00:39:37.130
I believe so.

00:39:37.146 --> 00:39:38.115
think you do as well.

00:39:38.135 --> 00:39:47.505
So, it doesn't help, unfortunately, those people who are unable to access an EHCP, but it does mean that you are legally allowed to request your child's funding and educate them somewhere other than at school.

00:39:47.885 --> 00:39:53.016
It's complicated, and if you offer a service that helps people, that will be massively,

00:39:53.425 --> 00:39:59.516
we've, yeah, part of our, I think we've got Jess who's our CEN support and she's amazing.

00:39:59.516 --> 00:40:08.146
She knows all the, she's fully trained in even, she can, she's just finishing training now that will mean that she can write your eHCP.

00:40:08.476 --> 00:40:15.661
Uh, the only problem is, is it's, obviously, it's a free service we offer to all our, our mentors, but obviously, That's very busy.

00:40:16.050 --> 00:40:17.610
So, uh, so we're looking

00:40:17.646 --> 00:40:19.246
sending your review up.

00:40:19.246 --> 00:40:20.844
I'll be giving you

00:40:20.971 --> 00:40:27.721
Yeah, uh, but you know, the lovely thing is Mindjam can be included in EHCPs and which is fantastic.

00:40:27.900 --> 00:40:28.971
That's another big thing.

00:40:28.981 --> 00:40:33.630
It's, you know, if you struggle to fund yourself and your young person does have an EHCP, then great.

00:40:33.891 --> 00:40:39.516
But I know there's lots of people that Same situation as that we weren't even really made aware by our schools or anything.

00:40:39.516 --> 00:40:46.715
We just, they just let us take them out, you know, say, okay, you want to go by not try and work and go, maybe we need extra help and care.

00:40:46.746 --> 00:40:47.045
You know,

00:40:47.425 --> 00:40:51.826
Because with an EOTUS you can, you can get access to tutors and support.

00:40:52.155 --> 00:40:58.916
And, um, we were going to use it to pay for, um, we have a really lovely babysitter who's on the color cusp of retiring.

00:40:58.956 --> 00:41:18.351
And she's a TA with Send Children and we thought, we were sort of speaking to her about, you know, Although he would have been educated online, we felt that somebody being there as backup, you know, just particularly as he started, but, you know, you could access the money and help fund it because it costs a lot less to home to homeschool than it does to have them in a school.

00:41:18.545 --> 00:41:26.905
Well, if this is the thing as well, they're paying thousands to send them to a school that they're never going to thrive at because they have to get in a taxi for an hour to go to the school.

00:41:26.956 --> 00:41:27.956
I mean, it's,

00:41:28.331 --> 00:41:47.782
And actually with Hector's school, when we were going, so we got him in for year 6, then it went back to the panel for year 7, um, which we weren't expecting, and then they said, and I called the, my kind of contact, the person I've pestered the most, at KCC, and um, and they were talking about, and they said, oh, are you replying for transport?

00:41:47.782 --> 00:41:50.501
And I said, no, it's 10 minutes up the road, we drive him.

00:41:50.981 --> 00:41:52.005
Um, and she went, oh.

00:41:52.286 --> 00:41:55.985
Oh, that, that helps because that took 30, 000 off his budget.

00:41:55.985 --> 00:42:00.376
I mean, we've gone on to a completely different topic, but, but the way the waste in the system and

00:42:00.396 --> 00:42:00.835
Yeah,

00:42:01.655 --> 00:42:06.356
but on the subject of costs, because people will want to know what does your, what does a session cost?

00:42:07.126 --> 00:42:19.686
So, yeah, we start with, you can have half an hour sessions, but most young people go to an hour, but we do, you know, for ones who are maybe feeling very anxious about starting, half an hour does help to, and then they quit very quickly and they're like, this is fun, no, I

00:42:19.905 --> 00:42:22.246
we'd do it every day if we had the cash.

00:42:22.905 --> 00:42:41.181
but the basic cost is, it's 48 including VAT, uh, per hour, uh, and that's for self funded, and for funded ones we charge a bit more, because it's, A heck of a lot of things involved in it, but that's obviously goes to the council, but that's a What 60 pounds include a vt 50, but they get the vt back.

00:42:41.221 --> 00:42:41.960
So we wanted it to

00:42:43.615 --> 00:42:48.416
every week, and I've always had a bit of an issue, because I, no, I'm going to give you a bit better.

00:42:48.416 --> 00:42:54.306
I'm also, um, uh, in recovery, so I drank a lot for a long, uh, for a long time, particularly after my husband Hector's dad died.

00:42:54.925 --> 00:43:00.425
And, um, I always was like, uh, yeah, I can't afford counselling, I can't afford counselling.

00:43:00.976 --> 00:43:03.545
I, I definitely was spending more than 60 a week on booze.

00:43:04.815 --> 00:43:07.726
I just think, with these things, if you can.

00:43:08.115 --> 00:43:08.655
You should.

00:43:09.045 --> 00:43:14.905
And if you can't, ask for help, because often there are places and schools that will help you or people that will help you.

00:43:14.905 --> 00:43:17.615
And you could even do it once every other week, couldn't you?

00:43:17.615 --> 00:43:20.925
You know, there are different funding options available.

00:43:20.965 --> 00:43:21.686
Um, I will.

00:43:22.081 --> 00:43:30.501
we can help and yeah, if you are connected with the school, but especially if you're a young person isn't getting into that school, then speak with the school and pass them through to us.

00:43:30.751 --> 00:43:33.300
Um, because a lot of the times the schools will fund it.

00:43:33.311 --> 00:43:35.460
This is, you know, the lovely situation we've got out.

00:43:35.460 --> 00:43:40.630
We're approved provision for most of the local authorities around the country now.

00:43:40.751 --> 00:43:50.204
Um, it's a lot of work because they, they all run in a different way, which is, Crazy, uh, why there isn't a central system for proofreaders, I don't know, but, you know,

00:43:50.431 --> 00:43:52.260
there's, there's many crazy systems.

00:43:53.275 --> 00:43:53.746
Yeah.

00:43:54.541 --> 00:43:58.831
But I, I, so Hector, I received DLA for Hector, which is Disability Living Allowance.

00:43:58.831 --> 00:44:10.320
It is a non means tested pot of money, which we claim partly because I needed it at the time, and partly because it puts them on the disability register.

00:44:10.541 --> 00:44:13.001
So they, Hector is registered as disabled.

00:44:13.030 --> 00:44:14.610
He's, he's not, in terms of.

00:44:15.190 --> 00:44:24.811
physical disability, he's able bodied, but it's, um, it's quite, if you are, if you've got a child who has got a diagnosis, it's quite, um, a useful piece of paper to have.

00:44:25.351 --> 00:44:29.561
So for me, that money is kind of ring fenced, so I use that to pay for mind jam.

00:44:29.981 --> 00:44:34.990
I use it for things like he, um, I bought him a new water bottle, um, and he dropped it on the first day.

00:44:35.050 --> 00:44:41.971
Now, for any child that's going to cause upset, for heck, his whole day was ruined, and it enables me to just say, I'll buy you a new one.

00:44:42.556 --> 00:44:46.295
Without having to buy three others, because the other kids are like, Oh, I want one as well.

00:44:46.585 --> 00:44:48.755
You, you know, it grants him a bit of equity.

00:44:49.365 --> 00:44:49.885
Um, so,

00:44:49.985 --> 00:44:50.775
important, DLA.

00:44:50.815 --> 00:44:56.786
We were saying, and that's how we managed to support our children when they're struggling through school.

00:44:56.985 --> 00:45:03.215
But yeah, I don't know if you heard the saying, but they'll normally always refuse it first time and then you write

00:45:04.115 --> 00:45:08.376
what, what bothers me, Dan, if I'm honest with you, is the fact that I have to refill it in every two years.

00:45:08.436 --> 00:45:13.461
Because until they've found a cure for autism, Hector's not going to get better, and better.

00:45:13.461 --> 00:45:17.416
And also the fact that it's treated, know, it is a condition.

00:45:17.416 --> 00:45:18.965
It's not something you recover from.

00:45:18.976 --> 00:45:19.976
Your brain is different.

00:45:20.715 --> 00:45:21.445
it's a tricky one, isn't it?

00:45:21.445 --> 00:45:28.880
Because I don't even see it as a disability in that way, but it's a social thing, you know, because of neurotypical.

00:45:28.880 --> 00:45:46.110
But do, you know, the fact is, is life is harder for somebody who's neurodivergent and working is going to be harder and having DLA then learns on, leads on to PIP, Personal Independent Payments, and it will help support them so they don't to do a full time job, you know, uh, you know,

00:45:46.255 --> 00:45:51.425
Well, I, and I was read, because I was reading some figures, because my, my, I'm sure my brother won't mind me saying this.

00:45:51.465 --> 00:45:52.496
If he does, I'll let it out.

00:45:52.496 --> 00:45:52.775
Sorry, Joe.

00:45:53.235 --> 00:45:56.846
Um, but he, he's a, he's 37 and he struggles with work.

00:45:56.916 --> 00:45:59.925
He finds, um, you know, he's a very bright man.

00:45:59.936 --> 00:46:01.135
He's a lovely, caring man.

00:46:01.135 --> 00:46:01.775
He actually works for a company.

00:46:02.735 --> 00:46:05.976
And, um, I'm going to, uh, I might as well ask him now.

00:46:05.985 --> 00:46:11.175
I'm gonna, I'm gonna get, ask him to get in touch with you because I think he would be so perfect for Mindjam, actually.

00:46:11.396 --> 00:46:12.476
In case he also loves gaming.

00:46:12.925 --> 00:46:27.021
But, um, he, you know, he, I sent him, I was reading a book called Your Child Is Not Broken, which has got some really lovely, One of which is, um, again, tangent, sorry, Dan, but my youngest child has just been diagnosed.

00:46:27.061 --> 00:46:29.601
Now she does not present as autistic at all.

00:46:29.650 --> 00:46:34.661
And you, in terms of looking or seeing me, you wouldn't know, but I could tell.

00:46:35.300 --> 00:46:38.530
And I this, and it said, why would you label a child?

00:46:38.541 --> 00:46:41.061
And the answer is because it's a care instruction.

00:46:41.210 --> 00:46:43.510
How can you know how to care for somebody if you don't know who they are?

00:46:44.400 --> 00:46:47.981
Um, And I've completely forgotten what I was going to say before that.

00:46:48.010 --> 00:46:57.141
Ah, yes, it was about, um, uh, unemployment rates, and also, rather more worryingly, is suicide rates in neurodivergent adults, particularly who weren't diagnosed.

00:46:57.380 --> 00:47:04.170
And so much of that is because the expectation on a neurotypical working day does not work for our brains.

00:47:05.056 --> 00:47:05.246
Ye

00:47:05.280 --> 00:47:21.690
Masking, you know, not having anybody that you can be, and again, I'm going to say I apologize, your authentic self with, and by giving young people a space where they can do all of this, I just think the outcomes that you, I mean, you must be seeing, are you seeing, have you got sort of real success stories that you can share?

00:47:21.710 --> 00:47:22.701
You don't name anymore.

00:47:23.150 --> 00:47:27.710
yeah, no, it's amazing from, uh, from one's been able to access back into education.

00:47:27.710 --> 00:47:33.931
It's right for them, um, um, to, to want to become mind your mentors, of course, and pay it

00:47:34.190 --> 00:47:34.911
wanting to do that.

00:47:35.110 --> 00:47:35.831
as well.

00:47:36.030 --> 00:47:42.960
Uh, it's endless, the, you know, the amount of good vibes that we have, we obviously send testimonials and, and things all the time.

00:47:43.251 --> 00:47:46.190
Um, but yeah, I, it's just so good.

00:47:47.505 --> 00:48:00.016
One young person I, I've worked with personally for the, for a few years, uh, went from not accessing anything to now being fully at college, uh, doing game design, absolutely loving it, but also having a group of friends that they meet with at the weekend.

00:48:00.016 --> 00:48:07.936
They got real, you know, the, the sort of the way they've blossomed is amazing and, you know, to know that, you know, I was at ground in.

00:48:08.380 --> 00:48:31.150
thing on that and they still want me around now of course, you know, it's like, you know, it's still nice to have that and to chat about what they're doing, um, which is amazing, but it's interesting what you said about, uh, mentors, as it says, we have many mentors, obviously, uh, neurodivergent themselves, um, and that's another great thing because we match young people with the perfect mentor for them and to have

00:48:31.150 --> 00:48:38.331
while I was reading the Sorry, I But I was reading through all the qualifications and what they do and they share pictures of their cats and stuff.

00:48:38.331 --> 00:48:39.300
It's so cool.

00:48:39.746 --> 00:48:41.065
Yeah, pets and gaming.

00:48:41.065 --> 00:48:42.425
I mean, there's nothing better than that, is there?

00:48:42.585 --> 00:48:44.195
But yeah, we've got psychologists.

00:48:44.311 --> 00:48:45.530
got the dog next to me here.

00:48:45.956 --> 00:48:50.400
we've got a lot of ex teachers, obviously, who are broken by the system see the system And come

00:48:50.601 --> 00:48:54.110
that people are leaving education and coming to work for you full time?

00:48:54.501 --> 00:48:56.351
Yeah, um, yeah, definitely.

00:48:56.351 --> 00:49:05.030
Um, it's, but yeah, we, we love our team, but we also know that the way we work fits, fits a neurodivergence lifestyle.

00:49:05.061 --> 00:49:07.351
And we can promote that to young people.

00:49:07.351 --> 00:49:13.661
That's what I love about the gaming industry itself, actually, and anyone that's got an interest in a career in that, it's really accessible.

00:49:13.831 --> 00:49:18.141
You, again, you can work from home if you want to, you can work the hours that are right to you.

00:49:18.411 --> 00:49:23.581
Um, you know, there's, there's a lot of, Understanding that, which there aren't in other places.

00:49:23.655 --> 00:49:29.445
No, and actually I always thought there was something wrong with me because I was able to get, I've got, you know, I managed to get a degree.

00:49:29.496 --> 00:49:37.726
I wrote my dissertation, obviously, I wrote my dissertation the night before, all the way through the night, um, and I was always very good at getting jobs and I've done some quite interesting jobs.

00:49:37.726 --> 00:49:41.036
I've worked as, you know, ministerial advisor, you know, I've done quite cool stuff.

00:49:41.775 --> 00:49:43.155
But I've never got many further.

00:49:43.175 --> 00:49:50.106
I've always got stuck or I've started, you know, calling in sick with hangovers, or I've got bored and I've gone off to do something else.

00:49:50.155 --> 00:50:07.195
And then I discovered this, which, you know, I, much like you, the massive imposter syndrome, realized there was a gap for somebody that was talking about being widowed initially, um, in a sort of fairly blunt way and it just snowballed, um, and now I'm doing something I love.

00:50:07.235 --> 00:50:12.315
But like you, I do it when I, when it fits around me, I turn down things I don't want to do.

00:50:12.735 --> 00:50:15.755
Um, it started to become a demand.

00:50:15.755 --> 00:50:18.106
I was doing two a week and it became quite stressful, right?

00:50:18.135 --> 00:50:19.626
I'm only doing one every other week now.

00:50:20.226 --> 00:50:30.675
And yes, you know, financial security allows me to do that, but it's also the knowledge that there are careers and jobs out there where you don't have to go into an office and sit at a desk all day.

00:50:30.710 --> 00:50:31.621
No, definitely.

00:50:31.621 --> 00:50:35.141
It's, I mean, obviously the pandemic helped It's weird.

00:50:35.141 --> 00:50:35.181
There's

00:50:35.340 --> 00:50:35.931
One plus.

00:50:36.670 --> 00:50:38.521
good things that came out such a bad thing.

00:50:38.541 --> 00:50:44.240
And I understand, but I have heard no more, more workplaces are now forcing people back, back into the office.

00:50:44.240 --> 00:50:46.490
And it's sort of lack of trust yet.

00:50:46.891 --> 00:50:47.101
Yeah.

00:50:47.101 --> 00:50:50.891
Actually, they're getting less work done because people are commuting and they're not as happy.

00:50:50.951 --> 00:50:54.590
And who's at their after they've just had their head in someone's armpit on the tube hour?

00:50:54.751 --> 00:50:55.331
No one.

00:50:55.710 --> 00:50:59.650
Oh, but the most of the young people we work with are budding entrepreneurs.

00:50:59.690 --> 00:51:02.360
Anyway, they'll be working for themselves and we champion that.

00:51:02.360 --> 00:51:03.610
I mean, that's what I've always done.

00:51:03.610 --> 00:51:06.940
And it's, it's, you know, and a lot of our mentors are the same thing.

00:51:06.940 --> 00:51:09.981
They've got other things, jewelry, businesses, all sorts of things going off.

00:51:10.411 --> 00:51:13.731
And I see that, you know, a lovely story.

00:51:13.731 --> 00:51:16.530
Uh, I had this young girl who, who again, couldn't talk.

00:51:16.530 --> 00:51:20.681
We just used to message, you know, I taught you message back, but that's,

00:51:21.121 --> 00:51:25.820
that's, sorry, I'm just going to stop with that because that's amazing because so, I hadn't even thought of that.

00:51:25.831 --> 00:51:30.471
So you've also got a way that people who are either selectively mute or mute can communicate with you.

00:51:30.960 --> 00:51:40.860
we can connect in whichever way is right for that young person that the main aim is to make that those first sessions as comfortable as they can be, you know, so if we're turning

00:51:41.181 --> 00:51:42.331
off some if they want and

00:51:42.690 --> 00:51:50.201
yeah, yeah, so they can message in however they want, or we could talk through mum and mum could just be in the room and they could be gaming and doing that.

00:51:50.251 --> 00:51:52.891
And that's, that's, as you say, what's

00:51:53.206 --> 00:51:54.474
It's the freedom, isn't it, be able

00:51:54.561 --> 00:52:02.831
amazing break But the breakthroughs of that is sometimes then that moves to say we're playing a game It's like it's really hard to just be messaging It could be chat and

00:52:02.945 --> 00:52:03.806
Yeah, yeah, yeah,

00:52:03.820 --> 00:52:03.920
the

00:52:03.920 --> 00:52:04.275
yeah.

00:52:04.920 --> 00:52:09.280
Or then they turn on the camera to show us something in the room and it's like we try not to look too excited

00:52:09.485 --> 00:52:10.036
Yeah, yeah, yeah, don't

00:52:10.170 --> 00:52:12.710
oh my god This is amazing.

00:52:13.110 --> 00:52:14.041
Um, yes,

00:52:14.206 --> 00:52:21.795
I can just, the joy and the enthusiasm that you feel for what you do for work is absolutely radiating off you through the screen.

00:52:21.795 --> 00:52:23.295
I can see how much you love it.

00:52:23.295 --> 00:52:24.686
And it's making me smile.

00:52:25.085 --> 00:52:31.945
And I think to know that there are people like you advocating out there for the young people that some of them just don't have anybody doing it for them.

00:52:32.396 --> 00:52:34.206
I just, I'm, I'm so grateful to you.

00:52:34.206 --> 00:52:36.596
And I know that so many of my listeners will be as well.

00:52:37.266 --> 00:52:38.795
Now, what, what's next?

00:52:38.856 --> 00:52:39.916
What, what happens next?

00:52:40.246 --> 00:52:41.246
World domination?

00:52:41.965 --> 00:52:43.956
Yeah, yeah, we're just taking over, uh, basically.

00:52:44.195 --> 00:52:46.255
We're gonna smash the system and

00:52:46.311 --> 00:52:47.380
Slay the patriarchy.

00:52:47.726 --> 00:52:52.335
Yeah, uh, we're growing as we can.

00:52:52.396 --> 00:52:57.076
Um, obviously we're working with trying to work with more and more local authorities and schools.

00:52:57.076 --> 00:53:01.170
But also, please know that you can self refer, you don't need to go.

00:53:01.190 --> 00:53:04.340
We work with the NHS as well now, um, which is great.

00:53:04.451 --> 00:53:12.090
We also work with young people in America, Australia, we've got mentors in Japan, Spain, it's, it's a worldwide thing.

00:53:12.400 --> 00:53:25.670
Um, and, you know, we just, You know, this, this works, you know, and now we've got a few years down and we know it works and we've got young people who are becoming very rounded adults, a lot more grounded.

00:53:25.670 --> 00:53:32.990
We've, we've now got set up a MindJam Futures team, which is basically helping the next steps, you know, where

00:53:33.010 --> 00:53:37.869
I saw this, this is sort of helping children find careers and, and,

00:53:38.190 --> 00:53:38.411
yeah.

00:53:38.411 --> 00:53:41.231
So basically, yeah, so it can be all sorts.

00:53:41.271 --> 00:53:43.380
So it could be finding appropriate courses.

00:53:43.701 --> 00:53:56.021
So basically their mentor or the parents can go to our futures team then discuss sort of, you know, they won't ever be able to be in school, but they want to be a data programmer or, you know, whatever

00:53:56.030 --> 00:53:56.561
do do that,

00:53:57.110 --> 00:53:57.927
we do that?

00:53:57.927 --> 00:53:58.710
What can we do?

00:53:58.710 --> 00:54:00.731
And we break down and look into that.

00:54:00.971 --> 00:54:04.210
We do offer, we work with, I don't know if you've heard of Asdan Awards.

00:54:04.351 --> 00:54:05.471
No, I haven't, what's that?

00:54:05.831 --> 00:54:43.556
don't know, they're lovely, like more based on life skills, but you can get certifications, they work towards UCAS points, uh, so we now can offer ASDAN courses, and they can be in all sorts, from animal care through to anything, but they're lovely, um, they're a lot more based, yeah, and we, Uh, we're actually writing a course for them, a Mindjam course, um, which will be more based on anything from gaming skills and teamwork, uh, to Minecraft builds, to all the way through to game design, if that's what they're interested in, or music production, or, you know, and, and, like I say, it's all about what I, going back to, I know we're going on tangents, but my

00:54:43.780 --> 00:54:45.010
That's my favourite, that's my favourite.

00:54:45.056 --> 00:54:49.936
Yeah, my daughter getting to college, we had to brainstorm because she wasn't going to get GCSEs.

00:54:50.036 --> 00:54:52.715
You know, she wasn't well enough to have GCSEs.

00:54:52.715 --> 00:54:54.166
She was in complete, um,

00:54:54.251 --> 00:54:54.710
Burnout.

00:54:55.115 --> 00:55:06.536
breakdown and, um, but we found it, we talked with the college, found this game art course that she really wanted to do and said, you know, what, this is where we are, this is our minimum, what could we do?

00:55:07.436 --> 00:55:16.306
And luckily it was a couple of functional skills and the English GCSE we had to get so we did them We actually used one of the Mindjam Mentors, Perry.

00:55:16.306 --> 00:55:18.246
She's still with Layla now.

00:55:18.436 --> 00:55:20.376
She helped Layla get through these.

00:55:20.376 --> 00:55:22.746
We've got an English tutor as well and

00:55:22.760 --> 00:55:23.771
to do that yourself, no.

00:55:24.556 --> 00:55:27.514
No Yeah, I can't

00:55:27.721 --> 00:55:28.800
teach any of my kids to swim.

00:55:28.925 --> 00:55:30.206
Yeah, I can't do it to my kids.

00:55:30.226 --> 00:55:31.695
They don't want to learn anything from me.

00:55:31.695 --> 00:55:32.465
They just want to play.

00:55:32.735 --> 00:55:36.965
But because Layla had a point, she knew why she was doing it.

00:55:36.976 --> 00:55:42.096
It gave her a bit more of And then, and it has worked, and she's got to college.

00:55:42.096 --> 00:55:43.385
But you know, it might not always work.

00:55:43.436 --> 00:55:44.826
These courses might not be right.

00:55:44.826 --> 00:55:47.766
We help others, and they start a course, but it's not quite right.

00:55:47.766 --> 00:55:48.936
The tutor's not right.

00:55:49.195 --> 00:55:52.925
Um, we're very careful in MindJam that we don't want to be seen as education.

00:55:53.465 --> 00:55:56.635
want to be seen as, We don't want to be uncool to the kids.

00:55:57.126 --> 00:55:57.485
Yeah.

00:55:57.505 --> 00:55:57.706
Yeah,

00:55:57.715 --> 00:55:58.695
don't want it.

00:55:58.695 --> 00:56:00.735
We don't want to answer to Ofsted and DFE.

00:56:00.766 --> 00:56:03.835
We don't, you know, we, we very much float our own boat,

00:56:03.885 --> 00:56:04.286
I like

00:56:04.505 --> 00:56:10.795
want, we want to be able to lead on to the right things and also preparing for adulthood as well.

00:56:10.806 --> 00:56:14.326
It's a big thing, um, you know, so we want to support more with that.

00:56:14.326 --> 00:56:18.746
So there are things we're developing, building, send support sides as well.

00:56:19.036 --> 00:56:20.846
You know, there's so many areas we can get involved

00:56:20.976 --> 00:56:22.106
just giving, showing kids.

00:56:22.106 --> 00:56:27.755
So my, my, I call him my live husband, which is a bit poor taste if you're not in the dark, humid club of widowhood.

00:56:28.175 --> 00:56:31.936
But my, so my live husband, he, um, he is in, was in tech.

00:56:31.945 --> 00:56:35.215
He's actually retired and he, um, he has no formal education.

00:56:35.385 --> 00:56:35.795
And.

00:56:36.670 --> 00:56:41.550
Even now, it's that, you know, you must go the GCSE, the A levels, the university.

00:56:42.061 --> 00:56:46.380
And actually, I, myself, I, sounds not dissimilar to your daughter, actually.

00:56:46.380 --> 00:56:49.960
I suffer what I now know is a massive autistic burnout after my GCSEs.

00:56:50.021 --> 00:56:57.121
And, um, the school thought I was, um, either taking drugs or just, you know, Not, just not interact.

00:56:57.130 --> 00:56:59.791
So they said to my parents, it's probably best if she doesn't do her A levels.

00:57:00.481 --> 00:57:01.931
So I went and worked in Pizza Hut.

00:57:02.490 --> 00:57:03.851
One of the best jobs of my life.

00:57:03.860 --> 00:57:05.440
I had a bum bag that was filled with tips.

00:57:05.911 --> 00:57:06.831
Oh, I made a fortune.

00:57:07.431 --> 00:57:11.221
But I then was able to access university, not even through an access course.

00:57:11.221 --> 00:57:30.166
They, um, It was a new university, and I can't remember the exact process, but because I had worked, I was 21, and because I had worked for long enough to show national insurance contributions, only my own income was looked at, not my parents, so it was funded, and I had to write like an essay, and I went and studied journalism at university.

00:57:30.166 --> 00:57:39.635
Now, it's again, I found a loophole and I wheedled my way through it, but that's, I imagine what your guys can do, you can go, right, actually there's another way of doing this.

00:57:39.800 --> 00:57:43.840
there's different ways again I mean I think we all get it.

00:57:44.050 --> 00:57:47.550
Why they put so much pressure on the GCC age, you need to know

00:57:47.996 --> 00:57:48.695
as well

00:57:48.721 --> 00:57:51.070
what this is, it's the worst age for that.

00:57:51.121 --> 00:57:53.561
And it's, it makes no sense.

00:57:53.621 --> 00:58:02.431
And then, you know, I think a lot of us, you know, Who changes career like halfway through and suddenly decides to study something and when you want to do it, it's fascinating and you really love it, don't

00:58:02.505 --> 00:58:10.076
books behind me and the books by my bed, you know, I do read fiction still a lot, but I'm, you know, I'm interviewing a woman about she's, um, uh, bleeding specialties in menopause.

00:58:10.545 --> 00:58:11.326
I'm interested in it.

00:58:11.425 --> 00:58:12.996
So I am reading and posting it.

00:58:12.996 --> 00:58:17.076
But it's, if you said to me, right, you've got to go and read this book on English literature, I'd be like, Oh no.

00:58:17.146 --> 00:58:18.985
And it would become a demand and I wouldn't want to do it.

00:58:19.416 --> 00:58:22.376
And I guess so much of that is finding what you love, but

00:58:22.771 --> 00:58:22.990
yeah

00:58:23.476 --> 00:58:26.536
what options are available is a really fundamental part of that.

00:58:26.896 --> 00:58:27.335
yeah.

00:58:27.416 --> 00:58:31.766
and going through gaming again, another benefit is people find out what they love through gaming.

00:58:31.775 --> 00:58:32.885
It's not necessarily gaming.

00:58:32.936 --> 00:58:38.976
Uh, uh, another young person I work with is now wanted to train to be a blacksmith because he

00:58:39.036 --> 00:58:40.106
Oh,

00:58:40.565 --> 00:58:42.556
weapons and things and then loves films.

00:58:42.565 --> 00:58:45.226
So, so looking to get, you know, job working on

00:58:45.416 --> 00:58:47.005
film sets and things.

00:58:47.516 --> 00:58:47.806
Yeah.

00:58:48.025 --> 00:58:48.416
Um,

00:58:48.596 --> 00:58:51.206
Hector was playing one where he was cleaning the house or jet washing.

00:58:51.206 --> 00:58:53.186
I was like, dude, we have a jet wash and a garden.

00:58:53.536 --> 00:58:54.335
Would you like to just

00:58:54.376 --> 00:58:54.835
it

00:58:54.846 --> 00:58:56.322
There

00:58:56.686 --> 00:58:57.806
Sounds like the most boring game.

00:58:57.835 --> 00:58:58.865
It's the best game in the world.

00:58:58.905 --> 00:59:00.155
It's the biggest chiller.

00:59:00.166 --> 00:59:01.976
If you ever need a game just to chill out, play that.

00:59:02.016 --> 00:59:04.346
The good thing is you don't get the mess on your truck, you know,

00:59:05.106 --> 00:59:05.326
Yeah,

00:59:05.365 --> 00:59:05.885
up, you know,

00:59:05.996 --> 00:59:07.065
yeah Hector would make a mess.

00:59:07.065 --> 00:59:07.275
Yes.

00:59:07.735 --> 00:59:09.096
I'm not giving Hector a jet wash.

00:59:10.815 --> 00:59:11.356
Oh,

00:59:11.396 --> 00:59:12.476
lot of, yeah, a lot do that.

00:59:12.496 --> 00:59:15.885
Like that, that game in particular, you're setting up your own business.

00:59:16.085 --> 00:59:17.775
You're, you're jet washing your van ready

00:59:17.971 --> 00:59:18.391
So you are

00:59:18.416 --> 00:59:19.126
start work

00:59:19.471 --> 00:59:20.280
involved.

00:59:20.880 --> 00:59:21.570
Yeah.

00:59:21.806 --> 00:59:22.936
there's loads of things in there.

00:59:23.255 --> 00:59:45.541
Um, Uh, because I think everybody games in a certain way, and a lot of parents I talk to say, I don't game, so I don't understand it, yet then they're on Candy Crush level 3000 on the phone, or something like, you know, everything's a game, but even things like Instagram, Facebook, and, you know, getting likes, getting, you know, posting up things, everything's got that little game to it, which is really interesting.

00:59:45.710 --> 00:59:47.271
I a game in the car.

00:59:47.280 --> 00:59:48.811
I make words out of number plates.

00:59:48.860 --> 00:59:58.920
I've done it since I was a small child and, um, not, not when I'm, you know, concentrating and driving, but if you're stuck in traffic and, um, all the excitement, if I get a four letter word off a number plate, that never goes away.

00:59:58.920 --> 01:00:01.190
And I suppose I've gamified being sat in a car, haven't I?

01:00:01.550 --> 01:00:02.880
Exactly, exactly.

01:00:02.891 --> 01:00:16.371
It just makes sense for me, you know, human nature is about, we like to have fun, we like to play and sort of this thing that when we get older we shouldn't play anymore is, is, is really daft because no wonder, you know, a lot of us struggle with our mental health and things when we're not giving ourselves the time to play.

01:00:16.630 --> 01:00:22.990
Um, so do, if you don't play games, you know, whatever works for you, it might be brain training or, or, you know, what.

01:00:23.655 --> 01:00:27.965
Doing a Stoku or be learning about Minecraft and Fortnite, who knows?

01:00:28.286 --> 01:00:32.606
Um, but, but do it and look at what your young person's doing actually

01:00:32.960 --> 01:00:35.201
I'd be interested in what they're doing as well

01:00:35.385 --> 01:00:38.706
of God, because you won't believe the speed they can build or the

01:00:39.141 --> 01:00:40.090
Oh, yeah.

01:00:40.826 --> 01:00:41.865
or things like that.

01:00:41.865 --> 01:00:43.476
But there's a lovely quote I love.

01:00:43.505 --> 01:00:47.016
Uh, George Bernard Shuri says, we don't stop playing because we grow old.

01:00:47.215 --> 01:00:49.945
We grow old because we stopped playing to there.

01:00:50.351 --> 01:00:51.400
That is a really good question.

01:00:51.440 --> 01:00:53.581
And it's one of those things that applies to so much.

01:00:53.581 --> 01:00:55.931
I was, you know, watching my daughter gallop.

01:00:55.971 --> 01:00:57.070
You know, she runs everywhere.

01:00:57.081 --> 01:00:58.920
And I'm thinking, when do you stop running for pleasure?

01:00:58.931 --> 01:01:00.400
When does it become hard work?

01:01:00.791 --> 01:01:01.721
And I guess it's like anything.

01:01:01.721 --> 01:01:04.041
If you don't stop, it continues to be fun.

01:01:04.490 --> 01:01:06.050
But as soon as you sort of,

01:01:06.835 --> 01:01:07.255
Yeah.

01:01:07.266 --> 01:01:09.465
need to stop using that muscle, that part of your body.

01:01:09.465 --> 01:01:18.865
And I'm, you know, I'm 43 and, and, you know, I've, sometimes I forget to just have a bit of fun with my kids and I took the boys, I, we've got four kids.

01:01:18.865 --> 01:01:22.255
So I just took the boys up to, um, actually to Tattleshall Lakes.

01:01:22.255 --> 01:01:22.806
You'll know it.

01:01:23.056 --> 01:01:23.405
Yeah.

01:01:23.516 --> 01:01:23.585
see.

01:01:23.585 --> 01:01:23.896
Yep.

01:01:23.965 --> 01:01:24.376
Yep.

01:01:24.585 --> 01:01:39.425
Cause I used to go up there as a kid with, because my uncle and aunt used to work there and, you know, we were paddle boarding and, you know, just, you know, having fun and the benefit of that because you do, you do get bogged down in, you know, being an adult and it's quite boring being an adult the time, isn't it?

01:01:39.726 --> 01:01:40.096
Yeah.

01:01:40.286 --> 01:01:42.505
So it's good to have the silliness and the fun.

01:01:42.505 --> 01:01:49.505
And that's, know, that's another thing I wanted to bring in with Mindjump, especially because I always saw at school how not fun it is.

01:01:49.536 --> 01:01:49.715
Yeah.

01:01:49.735 --> 01:01:52.476
We've got kids who want to play and you're not allowed fun.

01:01:52.476 --> 01:01:54.536
You know, the first years are like, Oh, this is brilliant.

01:01:54.576 --> 01:01:56.856
They're, they're, they love going into school play.

01:01:56.856 --> 01:01:57.596
Most of them,

01:01:57.666 --> 01:01:59.425
And then suddenly it's sit at a desk, look at board.

01:01:59.951 --> 01:02:01.460
Yeah, you can't go to the toilet.

01:02:01.561 --> 01:02:01.951
You can't.

01:02:02.701 --> 01:02:05.911
It's like, honestly, it's like, you know, no wonder.

01:02:05.931 --> 01:02:09.300
And then, and then if they follow that through, then they get a job that's the same.

01:02:09.300 --> 01:02:09.570
And

01:02:09.615 --> 01:02:20.155
Which is sitting at a desk, yeah, when you get a break at lunchtime, and yeah, it is, we've almost allowed ourselves to kind of become battery hens, haven't we, and follow through this, this, this, this, um, almost factory system.

01:02:20.956 --> 01:02:23.876
Oh, Dan, it's been really, really lovely to talk to you.

01:02:23.876 --> 01:02:26.465
I really like you, I think you're great, and I love what you're doing.

01:02:26.936 --> 01:02:38.456
Um, and I was thinking, just as we were talking then, um, about careers, options, and things, and obviously we have a studio here, it's, it's, um, it's a full set up studio, so if we can ever help you in any way, podcast wise, if you ever wanted to.

01:02:38.476 --> 01:02:46.416
If you want us to do anything like that, please let us know because we would love to support you guys in any way because as, you know, as I say, we, we are big fans.

01:02:47.175 --> 01:02:47.525
That's brilliant.

01:02:47.666 --> 01:02:48.755
No, no, thank you.

01:02:48.755 --> 01:02:51.025
And, no, it's been an absolute pleasure being on.

01:02:51.115 --> 01:02:53.206
I love, as you can tell, I love chatting about this

01:02:53.246 --> 01:02:55.496
Yeah, but it doesn't feel like work, does it?

01:02:55.496 --> 01:02:57.485
Because you're talking about what you love and this is it.

01:02:57.496 --> 01:02:57.695
It's

01:02:58.186 --> 01:02:58.635
yeah.

01:02:58.706 --> 01:03:07.536
And it still amazes me, yeah, freedom, it amazes me how many people don't realise the benefits of, to gaming and utilising gaming with a

01:03:07.550 --> 01:03:29.931
Well, like I said, I was, you know, I was looking forward to this interview, you know, I knew about Mindjam and what you've done for heck, but I found one of your, it was one of your links on a, from an interview, and it was the benefits of gaming, and it's, it just, like, spatial visualisation, it's been scientifically proved to increase plasticity of the brain, I mean, this is all stuff that I had no idea, so I'm to alleviate my mum guilt and, uh, let my boys play all evening.

01:03:30.340 --> 01:03:31.291
Yeah, do it.

01:03:32.536 --> 01:03:44.516
Thank you so much, and to anybody that has been listening and wants to know more about Mindjam, you can just find me by googling Mindjam, and you can contact me if you've got any direct questions that you'd like to put down, and I'm sure he won't mind being pestered.

01:03:45.240 --> 01:03:45.771
Not at all.

01:03:46.056 --> 01:03:52.115
Thank you ever so much, and to anybody that's been listening today, lots of love out there, I will be back with you soon with another episode, take care.