Feb. 6, 2025

S1 - EP10 - Understanding Suicide: Stuart Falconer on Grief, Healing, and Hope

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S1 - EP10 - Understanding Suicide: Stuart Falconer on Grief, Healing, and Hope
S1 - EP10 - Understanding Suicide: Stuart Falconer on Grief, Healing, and Hope
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Season 1

Trigger Warning:  Child Suicide

In  this incredibly powerful episode, host Rosie Gill-Moss talks about the death of a child with Stuart Falconer.

Morgan was just 15 when he died from suicide, leaving friends and family reeling.

This is something that we all fear, and often don’t want to think about, but staying silent isn’t helping, young people are dying and we have to talk about it.

This episode is, of course, a difficult listen but ultimately a very important one. Sadly sometimes unimaginably terrible things happen, and this is one man’s story of how he fought back. 

We discuss the complexities of grief, the importance of support networks, and the role of The OLLIE Foundation, which Stuart co-founded to raise awareness and provide training for those working with young people.

Resources 

1. The OLLIE Foundation: Information about the charity co-founded by Stuart Falconer, which focuses on suicide awareness and support for young people.

2. SOBS (Survivors of Bereavement by Suicide): A support group for individuals who have lost someone to suicide, providing resources and community support.

3. Mental Health Resources:

4. Books on Grief and Emotional Intelligence: Recommendations for further reading on grief, emotional intelligence, and mental health.

  • "Emotional Intelligence" by Daniel Goleman
  • "The Grief Recovery Handbook" by John W. James and Russell Friedman

5. Therapy and Counselling Resources: Information on finding therapists or counsellor’s specialising in grief and trauma.

 6. DBT (Dialectical Behavior Therapy): Resources and information about DBT, which Stuart mentioned as a helpful therapeutic approach.

  • DBT Resources: [Behavioural Tech](https://behavioraltech.org)


Connect with the show
Web : https://www.chatty-af.com/
Instagram : @chatty_af_podcast and @rosie_gill_moss

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Disclaimers: The content of this podcast is for informational purposes only. The experiences and opinions expressed by the guest are personal and should not be taken as general advice. Listeners are encouraged to seek professional support for similar issues. The producers and host are not responsible for any actions taken based on the information provided in this episode.

Chapters

00:00 - Introduction to Stuart Falconer

05:00 - The Impact of Loss: Morgan's Story

15:00 - Navigating Grief and Emotional Challenges

30:00 - The OLLI Foundation: Raising Awareness

45:00 - Understanding Mental Health and Suicide

01:00:00 - Coping Strategies and Personal Growth

01:15:00 - Creating Supportive Environments

01:30:00 - Conclusion and Key Takeaways

Transcript
WEBVTT

00:00:02.505 --> 00:00:05.956
Hello and a very warm welcome back to Chatty AF you're here with me.

00:00:05.996 --> 00:00:07.716
I'm your host, Rosie Gill-Moss.

00:00:08.455 --> 00:00:14.715
Now, throughout this series of podcasts, I have had the opportunity to speak to some fairly remarkable people.

00:00:15.555 --> 00:00:18.556
And today's guest is a very old friend of mine.

00:00:18.966 --> 00:00:23.765
I met Stuart when I was 17 and my boyfriend at the time was your best friend.

00:00:24.486 --> 00:00:33.290
And you're Ex wife, as she became, God, it's complicated, girlfriend at the time, then you married, then you divorced, Stella, became a very close friend of mine.

00:00:33.360 --> 00:00:36.560
And we've sort of been on the periphery of each other's lives for a long time.

00:00:36.631 --> 00:00:41.560
And there was a, a particular event that I want to talk to you about.

00:00:41.640 --> 00:00:44.600
Um, but first of all, Stuart, just introduce yourself.

00:00:44.600 --> 00:00:47.911
Tell me a little bit about, uh, who you are and what you do.

00:00:48.595 --> 00:00:50.185
So, hi Rosie.

00:00:50.411 --> 00:00:50.731
Hi.

00:00:51.746 --> 00:00:59.615
So yeah, Stuart, Stuart Faulconer, um, 55 years old, uh, grew up in Marshalls Rican St. Albans in Hertfordshire.

00:01:00.655 --> 00:01:04.995
Uh, I currently work as a HR consultant for myself, so I'm self employed.

00:01:05.566 --> 00:01:13.135
Um, but yeah, my life turned upside down when my son Morgan took his own life nine years ago.

00:01:13.225 --> 00:01:14.855
It'll be 10 years ago next year.

00:01:15.516 --> 00:01:16.766
It's barely believable.

00:01:16.786 --> 00:01:19.835
So, um, life has been obviously.

00:01:20.186 --> 00:01:26.176
A challenge, but hopefully today we can talk about some of the, the pluses that have come out of it.

00:01:26.286 --> 00:01:29.575
It might be hard to believe that they can be pluses, but they can be.

00:01:30.031 --> 00:01:48.715
And this is one of the things that I, kind of want to do with the podcast and the Widow side of what I do is to sort of talk about the stuff that other people don't want to because as soon as I told people the interview I was going to do today, but you can almost see people go, Oh God, you know, because it's like this ever present specter.

00:01:48.715 --> 00:01:55.195
And I think because of the, there is more conversation about mental health, which is good, but we are more aware of it.

00:01:55.195 --> 00:01:57.876
And I think this idea that.

00:01:58.331 --> 00:02:06.191
This epidemic, almost, in, particularly in young men, is happening, and we're still too afraid to address the issue.

00:02:06.570 --> 00:02:09.211
And actually, Morgan was just 15, wasn't he?

00:02:09.320 --> 00:02:10.110
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:02:10.631 --> 00:02:21.300
I, I, I, my biggest challenge and it and it has been for quite a while now is simply dealing with other people and their expectations, their perceptions.

00:02:21.711 --> 00:02:27.181
Um, and I real, my, my say recovery, but my biggest challenge has always been knowing how to.

00:02:27.580 --> 00:02:33.221
to contend with other people and their shock and their horror and their thought processes.

00:02:33.221 --> 00:02:36.290
You can, you can literally see their brain clicking out, ticking over.

00:02:37.241 --> 00:02:43.151
And so I've had to learn how to deal with all of those and acknowledge that I'm still going to have to deal with it.

00:02:43.161 --> 00:02:52.300
There are still going to be people that I, that find out for the first time, and we'll have a reaction that rages from, Oh my God, I don't want to talk about it, you know, to

00:02:52.600 --> 00:02:53.251
How did he do it?

00:02:53.251 --> 00:02:54.519
You know, that, just

00:02:54.586 --> 00:02:54.665
Exactly.

00:02:54.906 --> 00:02:57.186
You get every single reaction.

00:02:57.776 --> 00:03:19.306
And initially when it first happens, and obviously I'm aware of your story as well, I'm imagining, and please correct me if I got this wrong, that initially the shock that you were in, and people mean well, they mean well, they want to say the right thing, but don't know quite how to have those conversations for fear of upsetting you, for fear of re triggering you, re traumatizing you.

00:03:19.795 --> 00:03:23.036
And initially that may have Exactly.

00:03:23.036 --> 00:03:24.006
Yeah, exactly.

00:03:24.256 --> 00:03:25.496
And now I didn't want to bring it up.

00:03:25.496 --> 00:03:26.945
I didn't, you know, I didn't want to upset you.

00:03:26.945 --> 00:03:27.455
It's like, well.

00:03:27.760 --> 00:03:30.431
To be fair, I've been upset for, for nine years.

00:03:30.431 --> 00:03:40.131
There's nothing that you can say that's going to upset me any more than I already was and acknowledging that I'm responsible for the way that I react to other people.

00:03:40.501 --> 00:03:42.670
I have no control over other people.

00:03:42.850 --> 00:03:44.001
I know that now.

00:03:44.431 --> 00:03:47.830
And initially in those early days, I just, I don't know what I wanted.

00:03:47.830 --> 00:03:48.570
I was just, I think just.

00:03:49.295 --> 00:04:05.786
Drifting through conversation to conversation in a bit of a day is not really knowing how to handle my own emotions and then eventually reaching a point where I think I understand myself well enough now to contend with what life has to throw and throw at me, but that's taken.

00:04:06.165 --> 00:04:06.975
It's taken years

00:04:07.485 --> 00:04:12.925
And I do, I can, it, what I can kind of relate to is the idea of almost being public property.

00:04:13.415 --> 00:04:19.196
And then both of us have kind of gone on to try and forge something from our own trauma.

00:04:19.216 --> 00:04:21.415
You run the OLLIE Foundation, I've got the podcast.

00:04:21.896 --> 00:04:28.266
So it feels a bit disingenuous to go, well, I was public property, but it's different because now you're inviting it in on your terms.

00:04:28.815 --> 00:04:30.295
But when it happens, it's.

00:04:30.846 --> 00:04:44.815
You just feel like everybody's got an opinion, everybody's has an opinion on how you grieve, you know, are you doing it properly and you're almost so busy putting on this facade for other people that you kind of forget what, how you actually feel in all of this.

00:04:44.925 --> 00:04:46.565
you end up protecting other people

00:04:46.600 --> 00:04:47.581
Yeah, you

00:04:47.706 --> 00:04:49.115
the pricing for for telling

00:04:49.451 --> 00:04:52.440
Yeah, I'm so sorry that my husband died and I had to tell you that.

00:04:52.480 --> 00:05:00.060
Or, like, it's Somebody said to me quite early on, you know, it doesn't really matter if you upset somebody because, quite frankly, they're going to forget about it.

00:05:00.600 --> 00:05:01.690
You've got to live with it.

00:05:01.690 --> 00:05:03.550
Yeah.

00:05:03.850 --> 00:05:12.031
the journey is for me, acknowledging my own processes, my own, um, patterns.

00:05:12.401 --> 00:05:34.761
I didn't realize that when I started, I mean, just to give you some background is that after Morgan died, I probably spent 6 to 8 months in a, in a pit of despair, waking up every day, Crying every day cut disbelief literally in shock at the situation that's occurred and I could you can't escape it for for me It was about six to eight months every day waking up.

00:05:34.761 --> 00:05:36.081
It was Groundhog Day crying.

00:05:36.350 --> 00:05:50.086
Can't believe this But then I decided to start the charity with a couple of other colleagues, but I see now I realized now that I was using that as a coping strategy that actually it was to distract myself from dealing with the emotion.

00:05:50.245 --> 00:05:54.745
So I actually ended up putting all my energies into setting up the charity and meeting people.

00:05:54.745 --> 00:06:01.956
I'd meet MPs, I'd meet charities, other parents, I'd go to schools, I'd do talks, I'd share my grief to everyone.

00:06:02.386 --> 00:06:14.245
Um, and then eventually I sort of realized that I was burning myself out a bit and also trading on my grief, uh, and regurgitating Morgan's story where I sort of lost.

00:06:14.521 --> 00:06:15.451
a relationship with him.

00:06:15.850 --> 00:06:19.060
And I started to become, um, sort of lost my identity a little bit.

00:06:19.331 --> 00:06:22.161
So eventually I realized that I had to step away.

00:06:22.490 --> 00:06:27.610
That's when I started doing a lot of work on myself, having therapy and trying to

00:06:27.911 --> 00:06:29.100
like a man that's been to therapy.

00:06:29.401 --> 00:06:29.781
Yeah.

00:06:29.781 --> 00:06:30.120
Yeah.

00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:32.831
And I spent a lot of time just literally working on myself.

00:06:32.831 --> 00:06:37.050
Cause then I started to realize that a lot of my behaviors and habits were all, um,

00:06:37.091 --> 00:06:37.440
there?

00:06:38.331 --> 00:06:41.610
subconscious driven by most of my childhood, to be honest

00:06:41.661 --> 00:06:41.911
Yeah.

00:06:42.261 --> 00:06:43.911
This is the problem with therapy, Stuart.

00:06:43.930 --> 00:06:44.800
You go in, right?

00:06:44.821 --> 00:06:50.050
You go in saying, I've got this, trauma, this traumatic death, please help me unpick my emotions.

00:06:50.680 --> 00:06:54.071
Three years later and we're like balls deep in my teenage years.

00:06:54.071 --> 00:06:55.620
I'm thinking, hang on a minute, how did we get here?

00:06:55.620 --> 00:07:03.620
But so much of how you deal with your own grief is from how you coped with trauma or I'm trying to think of another one.

00:07:04.711 --> 00:07:09.050
For how you, you coped in times of adversity as a child or how you would talk to deal with them.

00:07:09.391 --> 00:07:16.360
And I will come back to this, but you're adopted and that, you feel that had a big impact on how you, how you manage to process your grief, don't you?

00:07:17.190 --> 00:07:18.091
how did you know that?

00:07:18.250 --> 00:07:19.505
Because I Googled you, Stuart, mate.

00:07:19.805 --> 00:07:36.281
of a lie, this is the truth, and I won't go through the big detail, but the long and the short of it was, was that my own charity did a webinar on why I adopted people more at risk of suicide than none.

00:07:37.326 --> 00:07:43.975
And I participated in that, in that webinar, because my reunion story with my birth parents is pretty cool.

00:07:44.495 --> 00:07:48.115
My birth parents, you may or may not remember this, my birth parents are living in New Zealand.

00:07:48.696 --> 00:07:54.125
Alright, so I've been out there and met them, and I still have a remote relationship with my mom and dad in New Zealand.

00:07:54.235 --> 00:07:56.675
I've got six half brothers and half sisters, and it's pretty cool.

00:07:56.836 --> 00:07:57.646
It's pretty cool.

00:07:58.225 --> 00:08:01.755
So when I did that webinar, it was from that positive point of view.

00:08:01.786 --> 00:08:03.915
Cause to be honest with you, I've never been suicidal, right?

00:08:03.956 --> 00:08:08.725
I've never felt that low that I felt that taking my own life was the only option open to me.

00:08:09.810 --> 00:08:13.855
Interesting you say that because, And I'm sorry, I realize I'm jumping topics.

00:08:13.855 --> 00:08:15.206
This is part of my charm Stuart.

00:08:15.266 --> 00:08:16.245
I'm sure you remember this.

00:08:17.795 --> 00:08:23.055
When Ben died, I did have suicidal ideations, and it took me an awfully long time to say that out loud.

00:08:23.076 --> 00:08:24.536
Probably only the last six months.

00:08:25.406 --> 00:08:32.556
And I realized very quickly that I was in a very precarious place, and you may remember that I was quite a troubled teenager as well, in terms of my mental health.

00:08:33.125 --> 00:08:43.591
So, I did seek help and I went on antidepressants, and I guess I'm just wondering, I suppose, perhaps, if you're, you are touched by suicide.

00:08:44.941 --> 00:08:45.520
I don't know.

00:08:45.630 --> 00:08:53.860
I guess some people, perhaps, it tips them more into that thought process, and perhaps for others, you see the damage it does and you couldn't fathom doing that.

00:08:53.860 --> 00:08:54.321
I don't know.

00:08:54.321 --> 00:08:56.061
I'm really kind of hypothesizing history.

00:08:56.110 --> 00:08:57.541
Tell me if I'm making an idiot of myself.

00:08:57.841 --> 00:08:58.650
no, no, I don't.

00:08:58.701 --> 00:09:05.780
I think, but I think what I realize now is that it's complex is that I've got to do a speech, I think a quiz on Friday.

00:09:05.870 --> 00:09:08.390
I was wondering about how I was going to sort of talk about suicide.

00:09:08.390 --> 00:09:13.961
And I was thinking like, I mentioned these names, Caroline Flack, um, uh, Gary speed.

00:09:14.130 --> 00:09:14.880
Graham Thorpe.

00:09:15.110 --> 00:09:17.701
There's someone else that, uh, you could argue Liam Payne.

00:09:17.980 --> 00:09:22.561
There's a number of famous people that have taken their own lives, but fundamentally they're all subtly different.

00:09:23.660 --> 00:09:27.941
And I think most people that don't understand the topic, yeah, will have a, like a very narrow view.

00:09:28.010 --> 00:09:31.821
Oh, it's mental health or it's this, this, there was something wrong with them.

00:09:32.341 --> 00:09:36.900
I'm not disputing that there may be elements of truth in that, but the reality is it is too complex.

00:09:37.316 --> 00:09:53.176
Pigeon it all into one box and say everybody should react in exactly the same way to trauma because I've never been suicidal And that's the point whereas you have been right and I would suggest that you know Well, we I'm not gonna question you on it, but I'm curious to know like how and when did you?

00:09:53.586 --> 00:10:01.956
you know, your upbringing and how that affected your sense of self worth, um, your view of the world, your narrative of how you've reached that point.

00:10:02.326 --> 00:10:08.941
And like me, like I was going to explain, I will explain it is that after I did that webinar,

00:10:09.240 --> 00:10:09.370
go.

00:10:09.380 --> 00:10:10.490
We're on our own schedule here.

00:10:10.490 --> 00:10:11.160
You just crack on.

00:10:11.160 --> 00:10:12.166
You

00:10:12.275 --> 00:10:20.525
but the interesting thing is that after that webinar was another webinar that my own, my own, my own charity did, yeah, called about relinquishment and abandonment.

00:10:21.280 --> 00:10:28.020
Really in adopted kids and I was curious enough to contact the person I did the first webinar with and say.

00:10:28.711 --> 00:10:48.341
Can I just share my story with you about my adoption and my life since she then forwards me this YouTube video of a psychotherapist talking about how Adopted kids how it affects their ability in relationships as they grow older and how it affects their well being Rosie no word of a lie.

00:10:48.591 --> 00:10:54.660
I'm watching this hour long video My jaw is slowly hitting the ground and I realized he's talking about me

00:10:55.630 --> 00:10:56.860
Weird when that happens, right?

00:10:56.860 --> 00:10:57.010
Mm hmm.

00:10:57.035 --> 00:11:10.806
Everything he's talking about is a tick in my box, and then all of a sudden the pieces of the jigsaw start to, to fall into place, and suddenly, because I've always been bright, and I've said that to people before, I've always been quite intellectually clever, but emotionally, I'm a fu

00:11:12.461 --> 00:11:14.030
It's called chatty as fuck, you're fine.

00:11:14.586 --> 00:11:16.066
fu emotionally, I've been a fucking nightmare.

00:11:17.046 --> 00:11:18.275
I've had toxic relationships.

00:11:18.275 --> 00:11:22.316
I've been real difficult to engage with people and helping trying to get myself understood.

00:11:22.725 --> 00:11:30.696
Um, you know, engaging in communication that's real and not just the surface conversations because I grew up having surface conversations.

00:11:30.816 --> 00:11:50.515
So I didn't know how to tap into my emotions and have meaningful conversation with people, which meant that all my My relationships were toxic, and that was the kickstart that made me start to realize that I had to take some responsibility for understanding my patterns, my coping strategies, why I reacted the same way in certain situations.

00:11:50.796 --> 00:11:52.785
Um, and that's been the turning point for me.

00:11:52.966 --> 00:11:58.785
So when it comes back to talking about suicide, I think every individual person will have their own set of circumstances.

00:11:59.115 --> 00:12:04.096
And more importantly is how they internalize it or interpret their set of circumstances.

00:12:04.995 --> 00:12:06.645
And that's different from person to person.

00:12:07.015 --> 00:12:16.221
You could have two people in exactly the same family, and you'll know this, two people in the same family with the same experiences, but view it differently because of their own narrative of the world.

00:12:16.520 --> 00:12:19.620
Yeah, my kids always seem to remember the times I shouted at them, which is nice.

00:12:19.921 --> 00:12:20.801
Yeah, but,

00:12:21.100 --> 00:12:36.071
So Stuart, if you, so you described there this sort of emotion, this sort of, I'm going to say lack of emotional intelligence, which sounds a bit insulting, but it's a sort of um, a stuntedness, so you, you've got the academic ability, the cognitive ability, but when it comes to expressing emotions, you find that really difficult.

00:12:36.471 --> 00:12:38.120
So, When Morg

00:12:38.301 --> 00:12:39.291
I didn't understand it.

00:12:39.350 --> 00:12:40.850
I didn't understand my emotions.

00:12:40.850 --> 00:12:41.750
That's the difference.

00:12:42.201 --> 00:12:53.821
I, I did, I read a book in my degree for my book review called Emotional Intelligence by a guy called Daniel Goldman, I think his name was, and I got a, a distinction from my book review.

00:12:54.360 --> 00:12:56.191
'cause I understood it from an intellectual point of

00:12:56.431 --> 00:12:56.791
hmm.

00:12:56.791 --> 00:12:57.150
Mm

00:12:57.211 --> 00:13:00.211
reality was though, is that I'd never be as able to apply it to myself

00:13:00.931 --> 00:13:01.311
hmm.

00:13:01.860 --> 00:13:03.811
three or four years ago when the penny dropped

00:13:04.561 --> 00:13:12.811
So I'm just So how, then, I mean, I'm not gonna ask you to go, like, right back into the moment, but presumably you received a phone call to tell you.

00:13:13.280 --> 00:13:13.780
And,

00:13:14.081 --> 00:13:14.591
at Morgan

00:13:14.721 --> 00:13:15.260
yeah,

00:13:15.691 --> 00:13:17.461
from Stella's husband at the time.

00:13:17.461 --> 00:13:17.671
Yeah.

00:13:18.150 --> 00:13:19.811
saying something has happened to Morgan.

00:13:19.821 --> 00:13:24.071
There were 12, 13 missed calls from Stella at like seven o'clock, eight o'clock in the morning.

00:13:24.921 --> 00:13:31.530
And you must have just looked at your phone, seen all these missed calls, and, I mean, what, what, what did you think initially?

00:13:32.421 --> 00:13:34.530
Um, do you know what, what happens?

00:13:34.530 --> 00:13:36.671
I missed all these missed calls from Stella and her husband.

00:13:36.671 --> 00:13:39.760
And then I phoned up, spoke to her husband who just said, you have to come over.

00:13:39.760 --> 00:13:40.951
Something's happened to Morgan.

00:13:41.750 --> 00:13:47.321
Um, and then literally the next half an hour, I had time to process what he was telling me.

00:13:48.400 --> 00:13:51.750
and started to eliminate the things that it could have been.

00:13:51.750 --> 00:13:56.191
So I thought, well, maybe I could hear Stella crying in the background when I was spoken to, to, to Ian.

00:13:56.770 --> 00:14:02.421
And so I started to sort of think, well, maybe he's just run away, but then no, why is Stella crying?

00:14:02.630 --> 00:14:05.681
You know, what, what's, and then it, what else could it be?

00:14:05.691 --> 00:14:07.760
He must, he must, something must've happened.

00:14:07.821 --> 00:14:08.831
be bad, yeah.

00:14:09.041 --> 00:14:13.150
At any point in that drive, because just, you're about, what are you, about half an hour drive away?

00:14:13.150 --> 00:14:13.216
Mm hmm.

00:14:13.725 --> 00:14:32.355
So in that, in that drive over, and I, you know, to compare mine and your circumstances, it feels unfair, but there are a lot of similarities in terms of processing grief, because in the time that the police knocked at my door, and I went to put the dog into the living room, I'd registered that there were two police officers.

00:14:32.591 --> 00:14:36.100
And then my brain started to go, okay, he's had a car accident.

00:14:36.110 --> 00:14:40.341
You know, and you start hoping for really terrible things, because they're not as bad as the terrible thing.

00:14:40.990 --> 00:14:46.240
But at any point in that drive over, are you, did it cross your mind that he might have taken his own life?

00:14:46.541 --> 00:14:46.850
Yeah.

00:14:47.500 --> 00:14:47.630
But

00:14:47.846 --> 00:14:48.056
Yeah.

00:14:48.056 --> 00:14:48.316
Yeah.

00:14:48.365 --> 00:14:48.666
Yeah.

00:14:48.735 --> 00:14:51.265
I started to, I started to just let literally tick off the thing.

00:14:51.265 --> 00:14:56.655
He wouldn't have left home on his own, you know, he wouldn't have, you know, he was very much a homeboy.

00:14:56.655 --> 00:15:02.066
So he grew up in St. Albans, but then he was living in Cuffley with Stella and her husband and Jake.

00:15:02.066 --> 00:15:05.400
Yeah.

00:15:05.701 --> 00:15:06.780
co parenting, didn't you?

00:15:07.020 --> 00:15:08.791
You had one week on, one week off.

00:15:09.201 --> 00:15:13.270
So you were, because I always admired that in the way that you were both very present in the boys

00:15:13.571 --> 00:15:19.475
Well, it worked, it worked well, but with hindsight, I don't think I had, again, I'll be honest with you.

00:15:19.475 --> 00:15:23.605
I don't think I had the emotional intelligence to really understand what impact that may have had on the boys.

00:15:23.990 --> 00:15:24.471
Mm.

00:15:24.640 --> 00:15:26.711
and talked through the implications of it.

00:15:27.110 --> 00:15:33.321
Um, you know, I don't want to talk ill of my relationships, but, you know, I had a difficult time with my partner at the time.

00:15:33.841 --> 00:15:51.721
Um, I don't want to talk about Stella's relationship, but I don't think I understood how to really explain to the boys the emotional, the emotional, challenge there was of having that split lifestyle, you know, because, um, you know, they had a very different lifestyle to what we had, you know, and obviously I still lived in St.

00:15:51.721 --> 00:15:57.551
Albans so they could get to school easily from where I was, but obviously they're driving from Cuffley to get to school in St. Albans.

00:15:57.561 --> 00:16:02.100
So there's little nuances like that, that at the time No, I did.

00:16:02.730 --> 00:16:03.041
Didn't

00:16:03.341 --> 00:16:13.660
And Morgan had, I mean, I know this, but just sort of for the, for the listeners, really, but Morgan had not expressed any Symptoms of low mood, depression, anxiety.

00:16:14.301 --> 00:16:22.860
And I think, to be honest, that's probably the scariest thing, as a parent, is the idea that you can think everything is okay,

00:16:23.350 --> 00:16:23.711
Yeah.

00:16:23.821 --> 00:16:27.230
and without any warning, they're gone.

00:16:27.711 --> 00:16:36.020
And someone said to me, because a good friend of mine, her little boy died from cancer, and she said, there's no word for you when you lose your child.

00:16:36.250 --> 00:16:37.660
If you lose your parents, you're an orphan.

00:16:37.681 --> 00:16:39.400
You lose your partner, you're a widow.

00:16:41.360 --> 00:17:00.461
And I don't know, it just feels like there's a real, there's no place for you and you talked about, you know, often struggling with your sense of identity and being the father of a child who died by suicide, that's not an identity that you necessarily wanted, but it is one that you kind of got.

00:17:00.625 --> 00:17:01.296
Yeah, you get it.

00:17:01.296 --> 00:17:19.306
Yeah, absolutely that and that's why I say is my challenge now is always how I process other people and their reactions to it because it's probably it's traumatic and people don't want to imagine what it must be like and so there are there are no common ground that people can then relate to you and people have tried.

00:17:19.306 --> 00:17:19.865
Don't get me wrong.

00:17:19.865 --> 00:17:20.915
I've had people say to me.

00:17:20.915 --> 00:17:24.746
Yeah, when my mom died, you know, when when my dog died, you know,

00:17:24.790 --> 00:17:25.990
Oh, fuck off with the dogs.

00:17:26.020 --> 00:17:26.391
Yeah.

00:17:26.786 --> 00:17:36.526
I don't, I don't want to dismiss other people's feelings because that's the point I started to realize is that I can't be responsible for what you think, what you process, what you're experiencing.

00:17:36.526 --> 00:17:38.425
I can't, I can't be responsible for that.

00:17:38.425 --> 00:17:48.105
I can only be responsible for the way that I react to you and I'm going to get angry with other people for what they perceive to be traumatic in their lives because that's just.

00:17:48.395 --> 00:17:50.346
That makes me, that, what does that make me?

00:17:50.346 --> 00:17:51.935
So I've become more compassionate.

00:17:52.145 --> 00:17:56.096
We talked about how I've, I've changed, I've become more compassionate to other people.

00:17:56.125 --> 00:17:58.346
'cause I don't need to feel angry about other people.

00:17:58.826 --> 00:18:01.826
And the, and the crap that goes on in their life makes no difference to me.

00:18:02.536 --> 00:18:04.905
I'll just be kind and compassionate and be a good person.

00:18:05.205 --> 00:18:09.135
And that seems to reap some sort of reward because I don't take on their energy, you know?

00:18:09.135 --> 00:18:10.326
Um, what's it called?

00:18:10.326 --> 00:18:11.101
Is it empaths?

00:18:11.101 --> 00:18:18.141
To take other people's energy, you know, and I know people that are empathic who take on, was it empathic or empathetic?

00:18:18.155 --> 00:18:18.425
I'm not

00:18:18.441 --> 00:18:19.300
Empathetic,

00:18:19.691 --> 00:18:22.451
Empathetic is when you could put yourself in someone else's shoes.

00:18:23.240 --> 00:18:28.681
Empathic is when you take on the emotion that someone else is, is, uh, is experiencing.

00:18:29.020 --> 00:18:29.931
Well, there you go.

00:18:30.020 --> 00:18:30.750
We're learning something

00:18:30.851 --> 00:18:38.611
empathic and someone else is stressed and anxious and you then absorb that anxiety and stress yourself, that's not healthy.

00:18:38.911 --> 00:18:39.425
No.

00:18:40.675 --> 00:18:42.385
So Stuart, I, I can't help it.

00:18:42.395 --> 00:18:51.526
I keep thinking about you in this car driving 30 minutes with your head spinning and the fact that he might have taken his life has come into your head.

00:18:51.605 --> 00:18:53.195
And did you dismiss it?

00:18:53.256 --> 00:18:57.730
Or did you acknowledge that it might be your new reality?

00:18:58.030 --> 00:19:01.931
The closer I got, the more I couldn't think of anything else.

00:19:01.951 --> 00:19:05.090
I couldn't think of any other rational explanation.

00:19:05.840 --> 00:19:06.310
You know.

00:19:07.746 --> 00:19:11.526
I couldn't, the only thing I could think of was he'd been kidnapped or he'd run away home.

00:19:11.526 --> 00:19:14.615
But then again, I couldn't, that sounds even more,

00:19:14.915 --> 00:19:21.820
my mind would go to, you know, Like, um, you know, that he had a coronary in his sleep or something like that.

00:19:22.371 --> 00:19:22.951
Um,

00:19:23.786 --> 00:19:24.296
uh,

00:19:24.570 --> 00:19:27.300
was it just the way that you, the way they spoke?

00:19:27.601 --> 00:19:44.586
fact that Ian said something has happened to Morgan, it was, it was just the way the words that he used the, this, I could hear instead of upset in the background, I could, you know, it, it, that, that was the only possible scenario that I considered was, was likely.

00:19:44.931 --> 00:19:47.270
So, how did you brace yourself to walk into that house?

00:19:47.865 --> 00:19:48.576
What can you do?

00:19:48.576 --> 00:19:53.945
I've drove up the road and I can see the police cars outside that reinforces the fact that something else has happened.

00:19:53.945 --> 00:20:04.455
And when I got there and instead it was, was crying and they told me what had happened and I was, I guess, you know, just still in disbelief, still in shock, not really processing what happened.

00:20:04.516 --> 00:20:11.096
I do remember from that point onwards, we then drove to the hospital where, where we saw him and that's when it became a reality.

00:20:11.096 --> 00:20:13.546
And I think I would say I broke down, I guess.

00:20:13.546 --> 00:20:15.326
I just, I remember collapsing because.

00:20:15.340 --> 00:20:24.020
I can't believe it's not real, you know, someone else, you know, I don't know if you've ever seen someone in the distance and thought, Oh, that looks like, you know,

00:20:24.320 --> 00:20:31.441
And your brain will be working overtime to try and protect you, to convince you that it's anything other than that horrible reality.

00:20:31.740 --> 00:20:34.155
Well, these are all the coping strategies that we all devise.

00:20:34.155 --> 00:20:36.776
We all develop coping strategies from when we're kids.

00:20:37.266 --> 00:20:41.675
Um, and in fact, even now, I do some voluntary work for another charity called Sobs.

00:20:42.020 --> 00:20:42.451
Yep.

00:20:42.615 --> 00:20:46.915
Sobs is a survivor's group, and there are people that attend this group who are still in denial.

00:20:47.425 --> 00:20:50.766
They still don't want to believe it and will absolutely say it.

00:20:50.855 --> 00:20:53.086
That, that's what they do to keep them safe.

00:20:53.086 --> 00:20:54.851
Both.

00:20:55.151 --> 00:20:57.750
that they took their own lives, or they don't believe they're dead?

00:20:57.750 --> 00:20:58.080
Mm hmm.

00:20:58.931 --> 00:20:59.340
Both.

00:20:59.340 --> 00:20:59.730
Mm

00:20:59.790 --> 00:21:00.000
Both.

00:21:00.040 --> 00:21:06.651
Some people don't believe they're dead, even though the evidence is to the contrary, and they know for a fact they're not, but their brain has yet to process it.

00:21:06.661 --> 00:21:15.141
So they continually believe, you know, I think it's hard to explain, but their own coping strategy is to, is to ignore, you know, if you think about other topics.

00:21:16.020 --> 00:21:18.740
People ignore stuff because that's what keeps them safe.

00:21:18.740 --> 00:21:19.701
I don't want to believe it.

00:21:19.701 --> 00:21:24.191
And that's part of the reason why problems in relationships, because I'd ignore problems rather than deal with them.

00:21:24.520 --> 00:21:30.250
And by ignoring them, you just push them to the surface or push them away and hope they never come back to bother you again.

00:21:30.590 --> 00:21:31.601
They always do though, right?

00:21:32.411 --> 00:21:49.590
a pattern I've been doing ever since I was a kid and it's all right when you're a kid those coping strategies are quite helpful when you're a kid but obviously it's very unhelpful when you become an adult and you're expected to engage with other adults then then those coping strategies are pretty you know unhealthy

00:21:50.730 --> 00:22:03.246
Um, and I know I keep harking back to this, but I keep thinking as well of this transition moment where you walk into the house because As long as you're outside in the car, you haven't been told.

00:22:03.945 --> 00:22:07.105
But as soon as you enter that house, it's true.

00:22:08.086 --> 00:22:16.365
And I'm thinking, for me, about telling the boys, you know, waiting and sitting downstairs and thinking, right, I have to do this.

00:22:16.915 --> 00:22:20.986
But when I do this, their life is changed, beyond all recognition.

00:22:21.351 --> 00:22:21.691
yeah

00:22:22.395 --> 00:22:25.855
Um, where was your other son in all of this?

00:22:25.875 --> 00:22:26.915
Was he at home?

00:22:26.945 --> 00:22:27.536
He was at home.

00:22:27.536 --> 00:22:29.191
And

00:22:29.490 --> 00:22:37.230
the whole story you know he witnessed it all he witnessed it he witnessed the aftermath you know the the cause the um

00:22:37.530 --> 00:22:45.395
seeing his mum and dad so distressed as well, I think that Yeah, because we are, and although it's good to show our vulnerability, I know that now.

00:22:46.036 --> 00:22:51.955
When my terrible thing happened, I thought I had to be really strong and, you know, not show my emotions, because they would worry about me.

00:22:52.316 --> 00:22:59.056
Um, like you, I've done a lot of therapy, a lot of work on myself, and I now know that it is important they see that, but it also would be very frightening.

00:22:59.435 --> 00:22:59.776
We're

00:23:00.076 --> 00:23:01.635
And he would be, what, 17 at the time?

00:23:01.935 --> 00:23:02.296
here.

00:23:02.486 --> 00:23:03.076
Yeah,

00:23:03.375 --> 00:23:06.105
Well, he went to school the next day.

00:23:06.586 --> 00:23:07.385
kids are weird, man.

00:23:07.846 --> 00:23:30.246
Yeah, I know and um, we've Look, I mean everybody is all over the place and he was no different and you know We could try and talk it through and stuff, but it would have been pointless at that time If you don't mind, it's a bit like the school because when Morgan died, the school then said to all the school, if you need to speak to a counsellor, they're available for you.

00:23:31.405 --> 00:23:40.246
But from an intellectual point of view, it's understandable that you'd be upset if someone dies, so you wouldn't necessarily assume that you need therapy or counselling.

00:23:40.540 --> 00:23:43.361
Because there's a reason why you're upset is because your friends died.

00:23:43.740 --> 00:23:50.851
So in that immediate aftermath and you're dealing with the trauma and the shock of it all, I'm not convinced that therapy would have been the right thing for me then.

00:23:51.165 --> 00:23:53.455
No, I didn't start therapy until three years ago.

00:23:53.961 --> 00:23:54.300
Right.

00:23:54.401 --> 00:23:54.820
Exactly.

00:23:54.820 --> 00:23:55.060
Yeah.

00:23:55.060 --> 00:23:58.480
So, cause you, you cope, you deal with, you have your own coping strategies.

00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:00.280
You think you know what you're doing to an extent.

00:24:00.290 --> 00:24:05.441
And then at some point in the future, you realize, well, Actually, yeah, now maybe is the time I need to seek some external help.

00:24:05.891 --> 00:24:19.500
with Jake, it was about realizing maybe about four or five years ago, even four, four years after Morgan died, maybe four or five years after that, that then me and Jake were able, actually able to have these conversations.

00:24:19.500 --> 00:24:26.351
Cause prior to that, the most obvious question I'd always ask him is how are you, which is a very narrow, straightforward question.

00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:28.961
And his response would be fine.

00:24:30.560 --> 00:24:32.090
Ah, I don't need to worry about that then.

00:24:32.540 --> 00:24:32.911
Phew.

00:24:33.405 --> 00:24:33.955
Job done.

00:24:34.006 --> 00:24:35.135
I don't have to worry anymore.

00:24:35.665 --> 00:24:40.135
But then after a while I was able to realize that that was a very closed question.

00:24:40.155 --> 00:24:44.076
So now we're much more likely to have a question, which is like, how is your mental health?

00:24:44.465 --> 00:24:47.435
How are you dealing with the stuff that's going on in your life right now?

00:24:47.816 --> 00:24:52.836
Because I will tell you this, I'm sure he won't mind me telling you this, that he went to university the year after.

00:24:53.326 --> 00:25:14.365
And as he told me since, that it was really good to get away from Everything was going on with with me with his mom to just get away from Exposed being exposed to that whole world of trauma went to Durham Which was like the other side of the country to an extent where he didn't tell anyone So he kept himself very much to himself and I hope he doesn't mind me saying this.

00:25:14.365 --> 00:25:14.596
I think

00:25:14.800 --> 00:25:17.611
We can check with him and we can take it out if he does afterwards.

00:25:17.750 --> 00:25:23.151
But I think what happened was is that he struggled to adapt, you know, for a number of reasons.

00:25:23.151 --> 00:25:28.320
Not only is in a town miles away, it's got create new friendships with a different peer group.

00:25:28.891 --> 00:25:30.411
He doesn't tell them about his loss.

00:25:30.881 --> 00:25:34.490
Uh, he occasionally comes back to the tour was to catch up with his old peer group.

00:25:34.931 --> 00:25:36.911
Uh, and I know that he struggled desperately.

00:25:37.365 --> 00:25:40.320
Uh, and it resulted in him telling me, but, but dad, I couldn't tell you.

00:25:40.405 --> 00:25:41.205
Why would I tell you?

00:25:41.205 --> 00:25:42.836
You've just been through the worst thing ever.

00:25:43.375 --> 00:25:47.846
Actually, my job was to protect you by not worry, letting you worry about my life.

00:25:48.385 --> 00:25:51.895
And I said to him, but Jake, I still have to be valid as a dad.

00:25:52.425 --> 00:25:53.665
I still need to be relevant.

00:25:53.675 --> 00:25:53.986
Yeah.

00:25:54.016 --> 00:26:01.236
And if you can't talk to me about these things and you can't share these things with me, then that makes me what was, what's my purpose makes me pointless.

00:26:01.480 --> 00:26:06.550
And then that sort of kickstarted a change in the way that we communicated and the dynamic changed.

00:26:06.790 --> 00:26:20.836
And now I'd say that we're very open about what's gone on and I can share with him the experiences I've had and how they shaped me and how my You know, immaturity and lack of emotional intelligence affected the way I parented and I think he I hope.

00:26:20.955 --> 00:26:21.625
Well, I hope so.

00:26:21.625 --> 00:26:32.986
I think he's learned from that or picked up on it and is more likely now to be aware of his own emotions and, um, and experiences which will stand him in good stead and literally with your kids as well.

00:26:33.056 --> 00:26:34.125
You tried to protect them.

00:26:34.365 --> 00:26:38.280
I don't want them to see me in a quivering, you know, Puddle of mess.

00:26:38.590 --> 00:26:46.300
So I'm going to try and keep, keep it all together for them, which has its purposes because still routine is still important at some point.

00:26:46.371 --> 00:26:56.851
It's too hard to keep some sort of routine, but actually at some point to be vulnerable and share the challenges that you've got can only educate, uh, your, your kids and the reality just, sorry, I'm waffling on

00:26:56.851 --> 00:26:58.060
No, no, you're not at all, carry

00:26:58.070 --> 00:27:05.260
One of the things that I had to identify was my own parents and their upbringing and their limitations as well.

00:27:05.691 --> 00:27:17.490
Um, and realizing that it wasn't their fault that they had challenges themselves that I was unaware of, or hadn't really processed until I started to understand that.

00:27:17.786 --> 00:27:23.240
Oh, oh, now I understand why I didn't have that emotional development when I was a kid.

00:27:23.240 --> 00:27:27.631
Now I understand why my mom was unable to give me that emotional development.

00:27:27.651 --> 00:27:28.401
Now I get it.

00:27:28.411 --> 00:27:29.451
Now that makes sense.

00:27:29.760 --> 00:27:35.721
Now I can take responsibility for me cause I can't keep blaming or pointing the finger elsewhere and say, well, it's not my fault.

00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:39.750
You know, it wasn't my fault, but that doesn't mean I'm not responsible for trying to change

00:27:40.510 --> 00:27:49.980
And I, excuse me, I quite often refer to it as the choice, because you don't have any choice when a terrible thing happens to you, but you kind of do in how you deal with it.

00:27:50.050 --> 00:28:02.121
And that six to eight months that you describe of kind of checking out, I kind of call that the chicken and wine phase, because I basically consumed almost all of my calories through wine, or the odd, you know, beer.

00:28:02.540 --> 00:28:03.431
piece of toast.

00:28:04.050 --> 00:28:04.411
Yeah.

00:28:04.411 --> 00:28:11.070
And I felt enormous shame about that because, um, you know, I felt that I hadn't been as present as I should have been when the kids needed me.

00:28:11.101 --> 00:28:13.901
And actually, they have no memory of this time in my life.

00:28:13.921 --> 00:28:16.701
One of my middle sons said, Oh, I think I've only ever seen you drink wine once.

00:28:16.701 --> 00:28:19.240
Mom was like, we'll stick with that.

00:28:19.790 --> 00:28:19.921
And,

00:28:20.326 --> 00:28:23.155
I

00:28:23.455 --> 00:28:29.506
because actually I feel an enormous amount of shame for simply doing the only thing I knew how in the circumstances I was in.

00:28:29.506 --> 00:28:33.631
And actually, would you mind just telling me a little bit about your childhood?

00:28:33.830 --> 00:28:35.310
Because I don't know a huge about it.

00:28:35.320 --> 00:28:40.391
And I think it's had such a huge impact on who you are that it might be just, it might be interesting.

00:28:40.391 --> 00:28:42.570
I'm just going to turn my pad over for a fresh page.

00:28:42.996 --> 00:28:55.326
always knew I was adopted, so I never grew up with any sense of, um, not belonging because I always knew about it, but my adopted parents, my mum was disabled.

00:28:55.506 --> 00:28:59.715
She had a physical disability as a consequence of her own childhood accident that she had.

00:29:01.455 --> 00:29:08.865
She'd, um, she was in the care of her older sister, sisters, and I think they dropped her in a playground by accident on top of a slide.

00:29:09.165 --> 00:29:10.165
Bloody hell.

00:29:10.465 --> 00:29:12.296
so she broke her bones in a hip.

00:29:13.250 --> 00:29:22.840
But it wasn't diagnosed for a long time because the sisters didn't tell anyone it was only, uh, when she wasn't able to walk when they saw fessed up and said, yeah, sorry, we dropped her.

00:29:24.540 --> 00:29:29.661
But the thing is, Rosie is that even though I knew the story, I hadn't really understood.

00:29:30.181 --> 00:29:36.010
I'm, I'm speculating, by the way, I'm surmising that this is what happened, but she spent half her childhood in hospital.

00:29:37.256 --> 00:29:41.496
having corrective surgery to repair the damage to her broken bones.

00:29:41.506 --> 00:29:47.326
So every time she would have gone through a growth spurt, as I understand it, she'd have had to go back into hospital for another operation.

00:29:47.415 --> 00:29:50.875
And at one point she told me it was an all in one body cast.

00:29:52.925 --> 00:29:56.486
So, okay, physically, that's one thing, but what does that mean emotionally?

00:29:56.516 --> 00:29:59.226
Because I know that she was the youngest of six.

00:29:59.645 --> 00:30:03.615
I know that her dad died, um, uh, quite a young age.

00:30:03.615 --> 00:30:07.046
I think, you know, he died in the pits or something, yeah, or in the mine, you know, down the mines.

00:30:07.695 --> 00:30:09.165
Six kids and no dad.

00:30:09.486 --> 00:30:18.665
yeah, I can't tell you the exact timing, but the fact of the matter is she spent half her childhood in the hospital, which meant that she wasn't developing relationships with her peers.

00:30:18.875 --> 00:30:19.385
Yeah.

00:30:19.736 --> 00:30:21.865
She wasn't developing relationships with her family.

00:30:22.536 --> 00:30:24.566
Um, you know, she wouldn't have been able to dance.

00:30:24.566 --> 00:30:26.266
She wouldn't have been able to sort of go out running.

00:30:26.266 --> 00:30:29.306
She wouldn't have been able to do the things that most normal people would have done.

00:30:29.736 --> 00:30:44.276
And my, my perception is that that meant that she was, uh, emotionally like God yeah, and didn't know enough about our emotions what it meant was is that when I grew up and my dad my dad was interesting So that was very quiet.

00:30:44.365 --> 00:31:10.351
I'd only found he didn't barely said boo to a goose So he very rarely shared anything about him the only time I ever heard him heard anything about my dad when my mum told me that he was an only child to a vicar and a domineering mother and that the the mother was sort of like ruled with a Like an iron fist and I did hear that he he got like a minus once in maths You And she hired a private tutor for him to get up to an A star or something.

00:31:10.721 --> 00:31:12.381
She, she like literally had this

00:31:13.046 --> 00:31:13.871
Tunnel vinnish.

00:31:14.171 --> 00:31:14.681
Yeah.

00:31:14.980 --> 00:31:15.266
tubble.

00:31:15.786 --> 00:31:16.836
Sorry, why can't I speak?

00:31:16.945 --> 00:31:17.846
Tunnel vision.

00:31:18.371 --> 00:31:18.721
for him,

00:31:18.796 --> 00:31:19.625
Yeah, yeah.

00:31:19.980 --> 00:31:23.530
And so he became very academic, you know, it was very, very bright.

00:31:23.540 --> 00:31:26.111
It was an electrical engineer, you know, very successful in his work.

00:31:26.471 --> 00:31:29.961
But during my entire childhood, I never met any of his friends.

00:31:30.590 --> 00:31:32.730
I never knew him to have any friends.

00:31:34.191 --> 00:31:36.221
So he kept himself entirely to himself.

00:31:36.800 --> 00:31:38.851
And so when I grew up, my.

00:31:39.340 --> 00:31:42.201
My household was like this just flatlining.

00:31:42.601 --> 00:32:01.550
There was never any heightened emotions or any arguments I never saw them have a disagreement once I remember it argue whether I should take the bins out or not That was it never saw them being intimate because they had separate bedrooms because of her disability that she wasn't able to to share A bed never saw the intimacy whatsoever.

00:32:02.280 --> 00:32:14.806
And so they by and by and large I'd say they let led separate lives My mom was very bright, but actually She told me as well that she applied for jobs when she was in, in the seventies, but never got accepted for a job.

00:32:15.145 --> 00:32:18.415
And my gut feeling is that it was because she had a physical disability.

00:32:19.155 --> 00:32:21.385
And how, how did the disability affect her?

00:32:21.536 --> 00:32:23.596
In what way was she physically disabled?

00:32:23.635 --> 00:32:24.665
It was a broken hip.

00:32:24.726 --> 00:32:33.115
So a hip was broken, uh, and then by the time I went, you know, I grew up and knew she had a, it was fused into, into place.

00:32:33.125 --> 00:32:35.695
So there was no flexibility or joint movement.

00:32:36.066 --> 00:32:44.615
It was literally fused into the socket, which meant that she had a straightened hip that couldn't bend, which meant that she walked with a, uh, like a, a gate, like

00:32:44.625 --> 00:32:44.996
Mm hmm.

00:32:45.405 --> 00:32:46.705
or a limp type thing.

00:32:47.695 --> 00:32:49.496
It affected the way she was able to sit.

00:32:49.496 --> 00:32:51.076
It affected her ability to walk.

00:32:51.076 --> 00:32:52.096
She couldn't run, obviously.

00:32:52.296 --> 00:32:53.195
Was she in pain?

00:32:53.965 --> 00:32:54.246
I did.

00:32:54.256 --> 00:32:54.655
She would.

00:32:54.915 --> 00:32:55.756
Yeah, she was.

00:32:55.776 --> 00:32:56.806
I think pain a lot.

00:32:56.855 --> 00:32:59.205
She turned to alcohol as well as her coping strategy.

00:32:59.655 --> 00:33:03.695
But more importantly, I think was the, um, the lack of purpose.

00:33:03.945 --> 00:33:05.766
So being at home all the time,

00:33:06.605 --> 00:33:07.925
You're an only child, aren't you?

00:33:07.976 --> 00:33:08.645
Yeah, yeah.

00:33:09.125 --> 00:33:16.536
So I think being at home all the time with no prospects of work, a husband that goes to work every day and has a fulfilling job.

00:33:17.006 --> 00:33:19.625
Um, I don't know what that does, deep and emotionally.

00:33:19.925 --> 00:33:25.885
And I think if she was, if she was bright as well and had, you know, a brain, it must have been very frustrating for her

00:33:26.226 --> 00:33:30.611
Well, she joined the Labour Party, so she did a lot of work for Labour Party, but I,

00:33:30.655 --> 00:33:32.205
She probably knows more than my dad then.

00:33:33.205 --> 00:33:46.645
But I do feel that she spent a lot of time at home and even though I don't think alcohol would have, like all of us, I think we all think we're invincible when we drink at certain times and then there comes that moment when it tips over into a problem.

00:33:47.236 --> 00:33:51.526
I don't think my mom was ever aware of when it tips over into a problem, but by the end she was pretty sure.

00:33:52.145 --> 00:34:00.365
When she died, I found like four empty bottles of whiskey in the house and you know, she would easily get through whiskey You know in a heartbeat because she'd say it was like pain relief.

00:34:00.375 --> 00:34:05.905
She needed it to just get through the day But but my my childhood was like that flatlining.

00:34:05.915 --> 00:34:18.025
There was never any highs and lows of emotions But the key thing that I remember most of all was whenever I had a problem or a disagree with my mum Because she's the main caregiver We'll talk about attachment styles in a minute.

00:34:18.025 --> 00:34:18.795
If you know anything about

00:34:18.936 --> 00:34:20.815
Oh, I'm all over attachment styles.

00:34:20.835 --> 00:34:21.335
Don't you worry.

00:34:21.900 --> 00:34:23.661
Changed my life when I realized it.

00:34:24.121 --> 00:34:26.610
Um, you know, my mom, I've had an argument.

00:34:26.661 --> 00:34:28.521
I just go upstairs to my room in a huff.

00:34:29.110 --> 00:34:32.371
I'd go and sulk, but she never came up after me.

00:34:33.110 --> 00:34:35.411
We never discussed the reason for the argument.

00:34:35.925 --> 00:34:37.505
So no conflict resolution.

00:34:37.806 --> 00:34:38.856
Never any resolution.

00:34:38.856 --> 00:34:51.266
So I was left to just stew in that, that process, that in that, in that, um, in that feeling with this gut wrenching anxiety feeling, which was, you know, I really don't like this, you know, I'm angry, I'm upset.

00:34:51.266 --> 00:34:52.496
I don't know what it is.

00:34:52.496 --> 00:34:53.146
Is it anger?

00:34:53.146 --> 00:34:53.905
Is it upset?

00:34:54.016 --> 00:34:54.655
Is it shame?

00:34:54.655 --> 00:34:55.286
Is it embarrassment?

00:34:55.286 --> 00:34:55.706
Is it guilt?

00:34:55.746 --> 00:34:57.945
I couldn't tell you, but I'm sat in my room.

00:34:58.775 --> 00:35:02.726
Uh, like just stewing there, don't know what to do.

00:35:02.936 --> 00:35:19.396
And I think that's the problem I had growing up, is that it then led to having insecure thoughts, uh, about myself, thinking I'm not good enough, I'm not deserving of, of love, I'm not deserving of happiness, I don't deserve that new job, I won't apply for that new job, because I know I'm not going to get

00:35:19.396 --> 00:35:20.456
won't want me anyway.

00:35:20.485 --> 00:35:21.106
Yeah, I know.

00:35:21.146 --> 00:35:38.945
That type of, those types of, of negative thought processes, which looking back now, Oh my god, just realized how much of that has been subconscious that I didn't even realize until I saw that video and realized that a lot of it was as a consequence of childhood patterns that I developed.

00:35:39.135 --> 00:35:40.335
Just, yeah, amazing.

00:35:40.786 --> 00:35:58.775
and that not in the stomach and and the fact you're talking about this kind of not always being able to identify what that means and I'm like, you know, I struggle to sort of It sounds weird, but I felt quite disconnected from my body I've started doing yoga and meditation and you do everything Don't you when you're trying to heal yourself?

00:35:58.826 --> 00:36:02.726
Because you refer to it as being a recovery and it is a form of recovery.

00:36:03.365 --> 00:36:08.996
Um, but that knot in the stomach of mine, you know, it sits there and it sometimes it's so physically painful, I can't eat.

00:36:09.056 --> 00:36:12.106
Um, and then I realized sometimes it's not scared.

00:36:12.206 --> 00:36:12.905
I'm not scared.

00:36:12.985 --> 00:36:13.755
I'm excited.

00:36:14.550 --> 00:36:16.121
And that's what's causing that feeling.

00:36:16.411 --> 00:36:19.351
And, I'm so used to that being, I'm afraid.

00:36:19.351 --> 00:36:21.981
And, like you, it's been there most of my life.

00:36:22.041 --> 00:36:35.621
I just, once I stripped away my dependence on alcohol, then, I kind of had to feel it, because, I now realize now that by any time I felt any sort of, unease or discomfort I would reach with a bottle.

00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:39.731
And once you take that away you can't have to look at it.

00:36:39.891 --> 00:36:42.701
Um, talk to me about attachment styles.

00:36:42.740 --> 00:36:45.521
Go on, you, you, you drip fed a little bit about that.

00:36:45.521 --> 00:36:47.231
Let's, let's, let's roll into that.

00:36:47.231 --> 00:36:48.422
Mm hmm.

00:36:48.422 --> 00:36:49.018
Mm

00:36:49.135 --> 00:37:03.400
I have to be mindful that there are people in my life now that this might, um, You know, effect, but the reality is I did a diploma in count or a certificate in counseling 15 years ago, two year certificate at the University of Hertfordshire.

00:37:03.400 --> 00:37:06.391
So it wasn't like a weekend introduction to counseling.

00:37:06.391 --> 00:37:13.771
I learned the whole theory behind it and the whole thing behind it or one of the modules that we discussed was attachment theory and a guy called Bowlby.

00:37:14.496 --> 00:37:16.775
who is a psychotherapist in the 50s and 60s.

00:37:17.246 --> 00:37:24.425
I mean, I don't know if you know this, you probably do if you know attachment theory, but mothers who are pregnant in the 50s and 60s, they went into hospital for a whole week.

00:37:25.925 --> 00:37:26.356
All right.

00:37:26.565 --> 00:37:30.965
Now, I guess you're stitched up and you're out the same day, but back then you're in for a whole week.

00:37:30.965 --> 00:37:33.266
But what would happen if that mother already had a child?

00:37:34.695 --> 00:37:37.606
Now I've asked this question to people and they say, well, they go to the father.

00:37:37.655 --> 00:37:39.326
Well, no, the father was at work.

00:37:39.666 --> 00:37:42.065
He had to earn a living so he couldn't take time off work.

00:37:42.106 --> 00:37:42.346
So.

00:37:42.731 --> 00:37:43.251
What else?

00:37:43.340 --> 00:37:44.340
Oh, aunts or uncles.

00:37:44.391 --> 00:37:45.411
There are no aunts or uncles.

00:37:45.411 --> 00:37:46.170
What happens to that child?

00:37:46.181 --> 00:37:46.541
Do you know?

00:37:48.240 --> 00:37:49.130
Went into a care home.

00:37:51.130 --> 00:37:51.420
Bloody hell.

00:37:51.771 --> 00:37:56.541
So, this guy, Bowlby, films this little boy, I think his name was David, because we watched the video.

00:37:56.871 --> 00:38:05.985
It'd never be allowed now, but we watched this video, uh, when I did this certificate in counseling, and it witnesses this boy's deterioration, his disintegration.

00:38:06.626 --> 00:38:17.905
As it goes through a really secure middle class upbringing to a care home, which is full of kids that have come from dysfunctional homes and broken, broken homes, dysfunctional existences.

00:38:18.695 --> 00:38:19.726
And they're all insecure.

00:38:19.786 --> 00:38:21.425
You can imagine they're a bit unruly.

00:38:21.766 --> 00:38:23.175
They're a little bit more aggressive.

00:38:23.251 --> 00:38:26.956
You know, they've, they've witnessed obviously things that happen in their own households.

00:38:27.425 --> 00:38:28.615
And this boy, David.

00:38:29.266 --> 00:38:34.115
Struggles to comprehend this new world that he's suddenly been thrust into.

00:38:34.126 --> 00:38:38.155
He's confused, but his behavior changes as a consequence of it.

00:38:38.646 --> 00:38:39.076
Yeah.

00:38:39.376 --> 00:38:47.246
So much so that when his mom comes to pick him up, he turns his back on her because he feels rejected.

00:38:47.646 --> 00:38:49.096
He feels he was abandoned.

00:38:50.025 --> 00:38:56.615
And so Bowlby takes that entire, um, sort of thought process and conducts another experiment.

00:38:56.615 --> 00:38:57.996
I might have this bit wrong, but the

00:38:58.081 --> 00:38:58.510
Doesn't matter.

00:38:58.510 --> 00:38:59.590
I'm not going to fact check you.

00:39:00.001 --> 00:39:03.681
He, he takes a mother and her baby and puts them in a playroom.

00:39:04.391 --> 00:39:05.550
Baby plays nicely.

00:39:05.681 --> 00:39:06.641
Mother leaves the room.

00:39:07.710 --> 00:39:08.731
Baby starts crying.

00:39:09.420 --> 00:39:12.710
Mother comes back, picks up the baby, soothes the baby.

00:39:12.920 --> 00:39:14.331
Baby carries on playing nicely.

00:39:15.141 --> 00:39:18.360
And Bowlby says, that's an example of a secure attachment.

00:39:18.731 --> 00:39:27.891
The baby learns subconsciously that when it's needs need to be met, the mother is there to, to, to provide those, those needs and just to support the baby.

00:39:28.951 --> 00:39:33.010
But what if the mother was abusive or neglectful, right?

00:39:33.050 --> 00:39:34.081
What would happen then?

00:39:34.380 --> 00:39:41.460
Well, the baby will cry when the mother leaves, but when it comes back, it's not, it's got used to the inconsistency.

00:39:41.911 --> 00:39:52.090
Of the abusive or the neglectful mother, so it gets used to that inconsistency and you might know this, but in the eighties, there's a whole train of thought that said if a baby cries, you let it cry out,

00:39:52.210 --> 00:39:52.990
Gina Ford.

00:39:53.291 --> 00:39:54.391
cry itself to sleep.

00:39:54.771 --> 00:39:55.181
Yeah.

00:39:55.840 --> 00:39:57.260
Now, I'm not a psychologist yet.

00:39:57.311 --> 00:40:02.561
I just know a little bit of the theory about it, but you think, okay, what if the mother was abusive or neglectful, right?

00:40:02.820 --> 00:40:06.391
So Bowlby then concludes that there are three attachment styles.

00:40:07.266 --> 00:40:47.721
And there are derivative synths, some bright spark synths have said, well, I think there are four, oh, there's five, you know, you know, Freud started it all in the 19th century, and since then, there's all been all this other, Sort of trains of thought that have evolved since then he says there are three attachment styles One is secure and these people have an appropriate amount of intellect and emotional intelligence to deal with stuff as it when it happens You know when it's with his trauma Difficult moments, whatever they appreciate it and they're able to deal with it in a calm matter of fact manner But the other two attachment styles are insecure and ones called preoccupied anxious That would be me.

00:40:48.471 --> 00:40:48.871
Yeah,

00:40:49.090 --> 00:40:51.280
I'm putting my hand up for those who aren't watching on YouTube.

00:40:51.940 --> 00:40:57.030
what, what, what are the symptoms or the behaviors of someone that is preoccupied, anxious.

00:40:58.231 --> 00:41:00.061
I need approval and reassurance.

00:41:00.630 --> 00:41:06.090
I've always searched for approval and reassurance in all of my relationships.

00:41:07.221 --> 00:41:08.311
I'm a people pleaser.

00:41:08.760 --> 00:41:10.181
I struggle to say no.

00:41:10.521 --> 00:41:12.661
I don't like to be a burden to other people.

00:41:12.931 --> 00:41:17.561
So when I read that and understood it, you sort of realize Fuck.

00:41:17.860 --> 00:41:18.380
Mm hmm.

00:41:18.596 --> 00:41:20.045
been doing that since I was a kid.

00:41:20.485 --> 00:41:28.365
I've always looked for, in all my romantic relationships, I've needed approval and reassurance, because I've not known how to deal with conflict.

00:41:29.356 --> 00:41:35.096
So what's happened is when I've had arguments or disagreements with partners, I've become very apologetic.

00:41:35.565 --> 00:41:40.646
I'm always apologizing, because I just want this drama, I want it to be over.

00:41:41.351 --> 00:41:44.710
And then I want you to tell me that you love me and that everything is going to be okay.

00:41:45.920 --> 00:41:50.911
Because if I don't hear that and I don't get that approval and reassurance, I'm going to keep on apologizing.

00:41:51.931 --> 00:41:52.581
Oh, sorry.

00:41:52.690 --> 00:41:53.570
Um, yeah.

00:41:54.221 --> 00:41:55.751
Here's my, here's some chocolates.

00:41:55.751 --> 00:41:56.490
Here's some flowers.

00:41:56.490 --> 00:41:57.280
Here's a bottle of wine.

00:41:57.280 --> 00:41:59.490
Here's, here's something else to make everything all right.

00:41:59.811 --> 00:42:04.920
But what you realize you're doing is that you're just reinforcing the belief that, that she thinks you're, you're wrong.

00:42:05.661 --> 00:42:07.400
I've, I've, I've agreed.

00:42:07.650 --> 00:42:12.900
I've taken responsibility for problems that weren't my fault just to keep it.

00:42:13.291 --> 00:42:15.190
Just to keep it just to end the argument.

00:42:20.630 --> 00:42:20.931
Yeah.

00:42:23.451 --> 00:42:23.981
to argue.

00:42:23.981 --> 00:42:27.061
It's okay for your mum or dad to shout at you.

00:42:27.061 --> 00:42:38.576
It doesn't mean that They don't love you because what, you know, I guess in a secure, um, relationship, you come together, you say, sorry, you have a cuddle, you know, that old adage of you don't go to sleep on an argument.

00:42:38.585 --> 00:42:40.335
I try and apply that to my kids.

00:42:40.335 --> 00:42:49.076
And I guess if you've never learned that it's okay to have an argument and then come back together again, then you're, you're going to be terrified of conflict and want to run away from it

00:42:49.376 --> 00:42:55.181
Stella won't mind me telling you this, but she grew up in a very different household to mine.

00:42:56.061 --> 00:42:57.260
I grew up in this.

00:42:57.641 --> 00:43:03.940
I think Stella will tell you that she grew up in a, in a household where she was the youngest of four, three older brothers, no father.

00:43:04.751 --> 00:43:10.340
And so you can just imagine the difficult nature of that type of relationship.

00:43:10.760 --> 00:43:16.190
So whenever Stella and I had disagreements and arguments, she would take the aggressive.

00:43:16.525 --> 00:43:18.996
Point of view, because that's what she learned growing up

00:43:19.085 --> 00:43:21.146
she had to learn to sort of scrap and fight.

00:43:21.445 --> 00:43:22.456
or hold her own.

00:43:23.416 --> 00:43:25.826
I grew up in a very passive environment.

00:43:26.155 --> 00:43:31.056
So when sterile head arguments, we just naturally just fell into these roles.

00:43:31.545 --> 00:43:34.356
And all you're doing is reinforcing those same roles.

00:43:34.806 --> 00:43:37.786
And all I'm doing is apologizing and she's angry at me.

00:43:37.786 --> 00:43:42.045
And you know, it never got any resolution because we didn't know how to resolve any of that conflict.

00:43:42.135 --> 00:43:44.485
Well, I will tell you now is that Sarah and I are best friends.

00:43:44.485 --> 00:43:45.166
You know that, right?

00:43:45.175 --> 00:43:45.646
Yeah,

00:43:46.155 --> 00:43:47.425
We've retained that friendship.

00:43:47.425 --> 00:43:51.826
And you know, I, I'm, I give her every credit that we've both of us read.

00:43:51.846 --> 00:43:57.786
We've worked through this now and are able to understand those patterns and how they affected our relationship.

00:43:58.096 --> 00:44:04.425
I want to draw you back in on that actually, but just complete my circle for the, for the attachment styles and then I'm going to ask you a bit about that.

00:44:05.550 --> 00:44:21.670
is called fearful avoidant, and I know a couple of people that are fearful avoidant, and what they do is that they have this belief that, well, I don't need anybody to help me, I can deal with all this on my own, I'm going to keep people at arm's length, because I just don't need that type of support from people.

00:44:22.601 --> 00:44:33.360
Now, here's the thing, Rosie, which I suddenly realized is that it's not uncommon for insecure people, either preoccupied, anxious or fearful avoidant to get drawn towards other people.

00:44:33.661 --> 00:44:34.690
Insecure people.

00:44:36.351 --> 00:44:41.161
You, when you were younger, me when I was younger, we had some qualities, right?

00:44:41.360 --> 00:44:44.460
We had some insecurities that we probably didn't understand very well, yeah?

00:44:44.460 --> 00:44:48.121
You had therapy three years ago, but you probably had a lifetime then of having insecurities.

00:44:48.371 --> 00:44:49.641
You didn't really understand.

00:44:49.650 --> 00:44:50.411
They were just there.

00:44:50.940 --> 00:44:53.800
They just affected the way that you behaved, but you didn't really process it.

00:44:54.170 --> 00:44:57.001
But you had qualities that you would demonstrate, right?

00:44:57.181 --> 00:44:59.411
Good looking, you were fun to be around.

00:44:59.706 --> 00:45:00.135
You know what I mean?

00:45:00.385 --> 00:45:02.286
You're, you're, you're, you're, you're fun to be around.

00:45:02.286 --> 00:45:02.416
Yeah.

00:45:02.416 --> 00:45:04.405
So people get drawn towards that fun nature.

00:45:04.405 --> 00:45:04.675
Yeah.

00:45:05.085 --> 00:45:08.815
I'm not saying I was the same, but I felt like I, I could be entertaining.

00:45:08.815 --> 00:45:09.646
I could be charming.

00:45:09.666 --> 00:45:18.706
I could have some qualities I could show because I didn't know how to understand any of these insecurities that not in a stomach, I didn't understand my emotions.

00:45:18.706 --> 00:45:19.070
So.

00:45:19.210 --> 00:45:22.440
When you meet people for the first time, you're going to show them those qualities.

00:45:22.440 --> 00:45:22.780
Right?

00:45:23.001 --> 00:45:30.371
So people drawn towards those initial qualities is probably like an instant chemistry with people because they, Oh my God, this person's amazing.

00:45:30.690 --> 00:45:32.201
They're everything I'd hoped for in a partner.

00:45:32.231 --> 00:45:36.840
But the longer you spend with that person, those insecurities come out because you don't know what they are.

00:45:37.150 --> 00:45:39.420
Now, when you're an argument, you don't have to have arguments.

00:45:39.971 --> 00:45:40.940
You turn to the bottle.

00:45:41.460 --> 00:45:50.871
You, you repeat these same behaviors, these coping strategies that you've dealt with because they kept you safe when you were younger, but as an adult, they're not healthy because you haven't worked through a process them at all.

00:45:51.231 --> 00:46:01.411
And then when I suddenly realized that all of my relationships, I never stood a chance, I never stood a chance in any of my relationships because I didn't understand me

00:46:01.710 --> 00:46:02.101
Yeah.

00:46:03.601 --> 00:46:04.751
that, that, that, yeah.

00:46:05.030 --> 00:46:05.530
Turning point for

00:46:05.831 --> 00:46:13.170
And what you're describing there is, it's, I've written down the word masking and actually as throughout the process of my therapy, I found out that I'm actually neurodivergent.

00:46:13.181 --> 00:46:17.291
I was diagnosed first with ADHD and then subsequently autism.

00:46:17.351 --> 00:46:19.681
Now, obviously very high functioning, what would have been Asperger's.

00:46:20.311 --> 00:46:24.826
Um, as that process, I mean, this is a whole other topic, but that, yeah.

00:46:25.405 --> 00:46:29.295
I was able to go back and say, okay, well, no wonder I didn't react like a normal child.

00:46:29.735 --> 00:46:31.436
No, no wonder I learned into alcohol.

00:46:31.436 --> 00:46:34.175
No wonder I had such awful body images and issues around.

00:46:34.226 --> 00:46:40.155
So it's that figuring stuff out as you get older and look back retrospectively.

00:46:40.155 --> 00:46:42.536
And my God, hindsight's a really wonderful thing.

00:46:42.536 --> 00:46:46.545
But this idea of masking this, you know, this, we present our best selves.

00:46:46.545 --> 00:47:23.990
Everybody does that to a certain extent, but when you lack that Center of kind of core belief and who you are what I didn't even I said I don't even know what I think anymore Like I had spent so long just molding myself to whoever I was with and you know And and you know taking on their viewpoints, you know I did a really good job of being a stay at home mom and you know, I made the homemade cups That's not me but I did a very good job of pretending it was to fit in and I think we could make the kind of this lack of knowing who you are in your childhood and that going into adulthood, the grief sort of blows the lid off.

00:47:24.431 --> 00:47:28.001
Everything spills out and you kind of have to go in and have a look.

00:47:29.356 --> 00:47:54.365
and dying is undoubtedly the most traumatic thing that's ever happened to me and has changed my life, you know Undeniably, but it was the therapy and the understanding of myself that allowed me and gave me more tools and more understanding of how I could process that grief and how I could turn, how I could not just turn his death into a positive, but how I could then live my own life with peace.

00:47:54.755 --> 00:47:57.726
And as I said to you earlier, I had, I meditate as well.

00:47:57.755 --> 00:48:02.885
And when I had my root canal treatment earlier, I dozed off three times.

00:48:02.885 --> 00:48:03.699
All right.

00:48:04.010 --> 00:48:04.811
No pain relief.

00:48:05.380 --> 00:48:06.061
Just the injections.

00:48:06.460 --> 00:48:07.121
Interesting injections.

00:48:07.121 --> 00:48:07.340
Yeah.

00:48:07.981 --> 00:48:09.411
And they said, yeah, that was amazing.

00:48:09.411 --> 00:48:09.541
Yeah.

00:48:09.541 --> 00:48:22.590
You're, you're the best patient ever didn't feel like that, but that's because I've been able to teach myself and I have taught myself now about my emotions and actually about therapy, the therapy I did, which was turning a turning point was called dbt

00:48:22.990 --> 00:48:26.251
Ah, right, my friend has just been referred to some DBT.

00:48:26.251 --> 00:48:26.940
What does it stand for?

00:48:26.940 --> 00:48:28.311
Because I know nothing about it.

00:48:28.760 --> 00:48:30.630
dialectical behavior therapy.

00:48:31.251 --> 00:48:32.831
And what does that, what does that entail?

00:48:33.396 --> 00:48:34.746
Well, there are four components.

00:48:34.746 --> 00:48:34.916
Yeah.

00:48:34.916 --> 00:48:39.516
So I was seeing a therapist and he said, look, I think it might be an idea if you, uh, in dbt.

00:48:40.076 --> 00:48:41.826
So there are four components to dbt.

00:48:42.456 --> 00:48:43.385
Really interesting.

00:48:44.335 --> 00:48:46.596
One of them is called, uh, distress tolerance.

00:48:47.405 --> 00:48:48.626
Now, distress tolerance.

00:48:48.876 --> 00:48:53.396
Um, I can tell you this because in the therapy, I was with 12 other people.

00:48:53.405 --> 00:48:57.536
I think it was during pandemic or just afterwards, but all the sessions were online and it was a zoom

00:48:57.621 --> 00:48:58.291
group session.

00:48:58.596 --> 00:48:59.186
group session.

00:48:59.240 --> 00:49:00.001
Are they all group?

00:49:00.795 --> 00:49:01.425
I don't know.

00:49:02.045 --> 00:49:03.416
I happen to attend some.

00:49:03.416 --> 00:49:05.485
I'm pretty sure people could do individual one on one.

00:49:05.856 --> 00:49:07.905
I happened to attend the group, which was pretty good.

00:49:08.706 --> 00:49:11.775
But distress tolerance was for those people that who were suicidal.

00:49:12.476 --> 00:49:14.005
And I learned quite quickly, actually.

00:49:14.016 --> 00:49:15.315
So a lot of the people on

00:49:15.391 --> 00:49:16.501
I just clarify straight?

00:49:16.561 --> 00:49:19.070
Did you say distress or stress tolerance?

00:49:19.751 --> 00:49:20.150
Distress.

00:49:20.150 --> 00:49:21.940
I thought you did, but I just wanted to make sure I'd heard you

00:49:22.090 --> 00:49:28.811
Yeah, so in my group, there was about 12 people and I'd say eight or nine of them were say teenagers, early twenties.

00:49:29.201 --> 00:49:40.860
I was probably the oldest, but they were early, early, like I said, teenagers, early twenties, a lot of them had suicidal thoughts and it dawned on me that a lot of them had anger issues.

00:49:41.371 --> 00:49:43.920
So when they blow up with an anger, right?

00:49:43.931 --> 00:49:48.121
So they'd react to situation and be angry, but who are they lashing out at?

00:49:48.121 --> 00:49:48.550
Do you think?

00:49:48.931 --> 00:49:49.431
Themselves?

00:49:49.431 --> 00:49:49.681
Oh,

00:49:49.981 --> 00:49:51.170
No, no, the families,

00:49:51.471 --> 00:49:52.431
the families, right?

00:49:52.936 --> 00:49:56.746
their loved ones, their, their initial reaction was to lash out

00:49:57.045 --> 00:49:58.300
yeah, of course, yeah.

00:49:58.360 --> 00:50:01.005
Because they're the people that you feel safest to do so, I guess.

00:50:01.306 --> 00:50:02.525
what replaces the anger?

00:50:02.536 --> 00:50:04.590
Once you've calmed down, what replaces the anger,

00:50:04.891 --> 00:50:06.150
Remorse, shame,

00:50:06.175 --> 00:50:08.865
you'll the guilt, the shame, the remorse, all of those things.

00:50:08.865 --> 00:50:09.016
Yeah.

00:50:09.016 --> 00:50:13.755
So you can start to understand why a young person who hasn't got control of his emotions will start to

00:50:13.960 --> 00:50:14.721
a spiral.

00:50:14.815 --> 00:50:15.686
I need to be here.

00:50:16.175 --> 00:50:17.005
I can't be here.

00:50:17.036 --> 00:50:18.175
They'd be better off without me.

00:50:19.041 --> 00:50:21.960
And the teenage brain is so black and white.

00:50:22.010 --> 00:50:23.940
It's so polarised.

00:50:23.981 --> 00:50:29.820
And you know, you can be, as you know yourself, you can be absolutely fine one day, and the next the darkness can descend.

00:50:29.820 --> 00:50:37.681
And I guess, and a lot of what you're doing now is trying to kind of build resilience around that teenage brain, isn't it?

00:50:37.681 --> 00:50:40.280
And how you can talk to people about these.

00:50:40.661 --> 00:50:45.070
subjects without necessarily creating a desire to take their own life.

00:50:45.371 --> 00:50:47.021
I don't have that fear anymore.

00:50:47.240 --> 00:50:50.141
I think initially I was really reluctant to talk to young people.

00:50:50.150 --> 00:50:51.900
I didn't want to, I didn't have the,

00:50:52.001 --> 00:50:53.181
the idea in their head kind of thing.

00:50:53.340 --> 00:50:55.021
I didn't, I never thought that by far.

00:50:55.030 --> 00:50:55.610
I'm not an expert.

00:50:55.911 --> 00:50:56.340
Mm hmm.

00:50:56.661 --> 00:50:58.360
All I am is a lived experience.

00:50:58.721 --> 00:51:00.001
We are lived experiences, right?

00:51:00.010 --> 00:51:01.280
make some experts though, right?

00:51:01.630 --> 00:51:02.420
Well, I don't know.

00:51:02.521 --> 00:51:05.101
I don't want to take responsibility for other people's journeys.

00:51:05.400 --> 00:51:05.751
Mm

00:51:06.130 --> 00:51:09.981
And I can advise, say, have you thought about, like, this DBT?

00:51:10.331 --> 00:51:13.880
I could say to you, I think it's great, but I'm never going to tell you, you have to do it.

00:51:14.231 --> 00:51:16.101
What I'll say is, maybe you should think about it.

00:51:16.110 --> 00:51:17.300
Maybe you could look into it.

00:51:18.061 --> 00:51:20.210
Tell me more about it because I went, I went off on one again.

00:51:20.670 --> 00:51:20.920
Yes.

00:51:21.121 --> 00:51:26.731
So the tolerance you think about it was just about coping strategies about the next time you get angry rather than have suicidal thoughts.

00:51:26.740 --> 00:51:29.740
What are you going to do in the future to try and prevent yourself from getting to that point?

00:51:30.490 --> 00:51:31.471
That's distress tolerance.

00:51:31.471 --> 00:51:38.911
The other one was mindfulness, which we all know about is living, going for walks, meditating, trying to be really present with what's going on at this moment.

00:51:39.260 --> 00:51:52.581
We all know now, don't we, that anxiety is either nine times out of ten worrying about something that has yet to happen or ruminating about stuff that's gone on in the past, you're playing over and over and over again what you've done wrong, all that does is take you down a pit of despair.

00:51:53.081 --> 00:51:57.221
So mindfulness is about trying to respect the fact that you're living in the here and now.

00:51:57.650 --> 00:51:57.661
hmm.

00:51:57.661 --> 00:52:00.940
It's actually, there's a, there's a similarity to that kind of, um, AA pair, isn't there?

00:52:00.940 --> 00:52:03.911
Because you, it's accepting that you can't change the things you've done.

00:52:04.190 --> 00:52:05.380
I've done some terrible things.

00:52:05.851 --> 00:52:10.226
Like, I've never hurt anybody, but I've, I've done things that I feel deep, deep shame about.

00:52:10.880 --> 00:52:11.231
Yeah,

00:52:11.530 --> 00:52:14.445
somebody develops a time machine, there is all I can do about it.

00:52:14.476 --> 00:52:21.396
I can, I can, I've, where I need to, I've apologized, I make amends, you know, I, I didn't do AA, but I, you know, some of the principles apply.

00:52:21.896 --> 00:52:28.960
Um, and the future, again, I heard on the radio, and he said, um, if you worry about something that hasn't happened, It happens.

00:52:29.110 --> 00:52:35.170
All that happens is you live through it twice and if it doesn't happen and you've, you worry about it once unnecessarily.

00:52:35.170 --> 00:52:36.971
And I think that made so much sense to me.

00:52:36.971 --> 00:52:45.690
I'm, and I, I guess you must be too living in a, a constant state of high alert, especially early on this, your belief that all is good in the world has, has been shattered.

00:52:45.751 --> 00:52:49.831
And so you are kind of waiting all the time for the hammer to drop again for the next blow.

00:52:50.985 --> 00:52:56.146
I realized I wasted probably two years in constant state of terror about nothing.

00:52:56.155 --> 00:52:57.646
You know, was I going to die?

00:52:57.646 --> 00:52:59.556
Were the children going to be left orphans?

00:53:00.166 --> 00:53:09.865
Um, and essentially all I did was carried on in this kind of negative, um, self medication cycle, which actually was detrimental to my health.

00:53:10.425 --> 00:53:10.766
yeah,

00:53:11.085 --> 00:53:12.045
Humans are weird, right?

00:53:12.045 --> 00:53:13.525
Yeah.

00:53:13.826 --> 00:53:14.186
in a way.

00:53:15.646 --> 00:53:17.016
And there is something about that as well.

00:53:17.016 --> 00:53:18.115
It's that kind of, if I'm.

00:53:18.900 --> 00:53:24.110
Ruin it that it's done before I can before somebody else does that.

00:53:24.121 --> 00:53:24.130
Mm

00:53:24.405 --> 00:53:25.945
I underachieved at school.

00:53:26.025 --> 00:53:28.606
I only got two O levels, GCSEs in your era.

00:53:28.956 --> 00:53:35.525
But I only got two O levels, and I didn't revise, didn't put the yards in, and said to myself, Well, the only reason you failed is because you didn't try.

00:53:36.496 --> 00:53:39.335
And that sort of, like, justified why I didn't do very well.

00:53:39.346 --> 00:53:40.885
So it was a get out of jail free card.

00:53:41.525 --> 00:53:45.596
And it took me a long time to start realize that I'm, you know, I'm responsible.

00:53:46.135 --> 00:53:51.096
I'm the one that's responsible and that that's why life has become infinitely easier now because I have that peace of mind.

00:53:51.096 --> 00:53:52.666
I don't give myself a hard time

00:53:53.391 --> 00:53:53.871
Yeah,

00:53:54.385 --> 00:53:55.936
which is really really good.

00:53:56.405 --> 00:54:07.786
But yeah, I used to yeah, I mean I could be awake all night at times probably you have as well Just running things through my mind overthinking Why if this and what if that and like jesus christ, I mean,

00:54:07.831 --> 00:54:31.311
well, I think particularly for you And I guess I guess to a certain extent for me because I'd have very few answers about how Ben died I just know that he died to you, but I think his body has still not been recovered So there's there was an inquest post mortem that he'd got it for that But you know, they they There was a coroner's inquest, um, but it's that what if, you know, what if I'd said to him, it's horrible out there, don't go diving.

00:54:31.530 --> 00:54:34.061
And I'm just thinking you must have tormented yourself with these

00:54:34.070 --> 00:54:34.360
Yeah.

00:54:34.641 --> 00:54:34.900
Yeah.

00:54:35.090 --> 00:54:35.300
Yeah.

00:54:35.391 --> 00:54:42.971
at what point, I guess the answer is going to be therapy and, you know, the acceptance phase of grieving, but does it ever stop?

00:54:43.420 --> 00:54:43.931
Oh, yeah, it does.

00:54:43.931 --> 00:54:44.170
Yeah.

00:54:44.201 --> 00:54:50.161
I, I, I reached a point actually quite quickly when, um, I think initially I started reading a lot.

00:54:50.201 --> 00:54:51.130
I read every book.

00:54:51.161 --> 00:54:52.331
I googled suicide.

00:54:52.331 --> 00:55:03.561
I found myself just researching the whole topic, looking for answers, replaying conversations and interactions and eventually drawing a conclusion that I'd never know.

00:55:04.141 --> 00:55:07.416
I was never going to get a definitive answer because the only person that could answer it.

00:55:07.731 --> 00:55:08.490
Wasn't here.

00:55:09.155 --> 00:55:11.916
So I was able to then get to that point quite quickly.

00:55:12.420 --> 00:55:14.561
That's quite a difficult thing to accept though, isn't it?

00:55:15.045 --> 00:55:20.065
Yeah, it is maybe so, but maybe, maybe I might be on the cusp of ADHD, whatever.

00:55:20.436 --> 00:55:21.251
But I think maybe.

00:55:21.550 --> 00:55:21.831
maybe.

00:55:22.456 --> 00:55:31.666
You know, but like maybe my brain, the way I was able to accept that quite quickly, I'm never going to know what the answer is to why would I want to waste my time trying to find out how am I going to find out?

00:55:32.141 --> 00:55:32.541
Yeah,

00:55:33.335 --> 00:55:49.646
And so actually when I started to look at suicide across the country and looked at statistics and realized that it wasn't as uncommon as maybe I thought it was, and realizing that actually Morgan's death was actually very similar to a lot of other people that have been through the same thing where there was no signs, there's no warnings, and it just happens out of the blue.

00:55:49.646 --> 00:55:49.766
It's.

00:55:50.481 --> 00:55:59.581
And now, since then, I've sort of processed it and sort of come up with an explanation that sort of, you know, satisfies me in a way, is that he was probably overwhelmed.

00:55:59.590 --> 00:56:01.731
I think, if you don't mind, we'll go back to the DBT.

00:56:02.469 --> 00:56:13.760
I sort of accept and think that maybe my perception of mental health is different now than what it was nine years ago, and even 20 or 30 years prior to that.

00:56:14.300 --> 00:56:20.820
And I think people need to understand that I view it, if you have a scale of 1 to 10, right, and mental health.

00:56:21.050 --> 00:56:28.201
And at one, you've got your interview stress, your exam stress, you've got low level stress that we all experience on a daily basis.

00:56:28.201 --> 00:56:29.510
Going on a first date stress.

00:56:29.971 --> 00:56:30.320
Do you know what I mean?

00:56:30.331 --> 00:56:34.900
These sort of stresses that are normal, that you react with as like, you know, impending

00:56:35.201 --> 00:56:36.210
An irritation or

00:56:37.331 --> 00:56:50.311
And then you've got your level 10, which I would suggest could be your lifelong diagnosable mental health conditions, schizophrenia, BPD, where you have to have lifelong medication and intervention to keep you safe.

00:56:51.050 --> 00:56:52.541
And then you've got everything else in the middle.

00:56:53.231 --> 00:56:58.581
And I think it's unrealistic and unreasonable to assume that you'll stay at any one point on that path.

00:56:59.005 --> 00:57:24.275
On that chart forever and a day you fluctuate up and down that that chart dependent on what's going on in your life at that moment and I had a panic attack about about 15 years ago where, uh, there are like five significant life events going on at the same time and I became emotionally overwhelmed by all of these things that happened and it resulted in a panic attack heart didn't know what was going on went to the GP.

00:57:24.490 --> 00:57:25.231
Told him what happened.

00:57:25.231 --> 00:57:26.451
He goes, yeah, you've had a panic attack.

00:57:26.871 --> 00:57:27.570
You're kidding me.

00:57:27.630 --> 00:57:28.141
Really?

00:57:29.030 --> 00:57:37.496
So I think we need to understand that we can fluctuate up and down that, that chart from one to 10 dependent on what's going on in our lives at that moment.

00:57:37.496 --> 00:57:53.280
And you can become vulnerable, dependent on the severity of those, those situations that occur, you know, like in your case, you are probably more vulnerable, especially your mental health would have exacerbated as a consequence of, of Ben's, uh, missing,

00:57:53.815 --> 00:57:54.235
Yeah.

00:57:54.815 --> 00:57:55.155
Yeah.

00:57:55.206 --> 00:58:05.675
And I, and I think as well, you describe a, you know, sort of four or five stressors and, you know, maybe one, two, three of these stressors might be manageable, but it's when they start to stack, isn't it?

00:58:05.675 --> 00:58:09.795
And I know myself, I get really overwhelmed and I'll start saying, I've got too much to do.

00:58:09.795 --> 00:58:10.326
I've got too much to do.

00:58:10.326 --> 00:58:11.135
I've got too much to do.

00:58:11.596 --> 00:58:13.755
And actually if I want to write a list, it's fairly manageable.

00:58:13.775 --> 00:58:17.085
But when it's swirling around in my head, of course, I'm going to do, I've got so much to do.

00:58:17.166 --> 00:58:19.246
And I'm thinking of, you know, teenagers.

00:58:19.391 --> 00:58:21.650
today and, and how much pressure they're under.

00:58:21.650 --> 00:58:25.471
And, and Morgan was a very bright boy as well, wasn't he?

00:58:25.471 --> 00:58:28.391
So, you know, he would have put pressure on himself to succeed.

00:58:28.431 --> 00:58:37.451
And I don't know, I mean, we, nobody can, can say, as you, as you said, but that, you know, the fluctuation, that enormous fluctuation that can happen.

00:58:37.971 --> 00:59:03.226
And I guess it's, Teaching young people from an early age what to do when that happens, you know, and I guess one of the primary things is telling somebody the first time I talk, so I, I medicated and, you know, counseled and unfair mood is fairly stable at the moment, but when I was kind of going through the process of, I guess, unmasking, I would have really quite physical meltdowns and they're quite embarrassing.

00:59:03.226 --> 00:59:04.275
I'm quite embarrassed by them.

00:59:04.985 --> 00:59:10.851
And the first time I let John see that it was like this, um, weight had been lifted off me.

00:59:10.911 --> 00:59:13.170
Uh, you know, I felt very vulnerable.

00:59:13.630 --> 00:59:22.260
And the first time I told him that I was having, says have ideation, and I probably didn't say it in a very nice way because I was probably mid meltdown, but he kind of physically recoiled.

00:59:23.661 --> 00:59:26.851
And actually that's what we need to, it's a, it's an understandable reaction.

00:59:26.851 --> 00:59:29.871
And the, and often people will say, Oh, don't be bloody ridiculous.

00:59:30.041 --> 00:59:30.791
Don't say things like that.

00:59:31.110 --> 00:59:36.170
And actually often the people that do say it are less likely to do it because they are giving those words.

00:59:36.710 --> 00:59:37.800
You take the power away.

00:59:37.831 --> 00:59:39.960
You say it out loud and a lot of the power goes.

00:59:40.440 --> 00:59:46.630
So I'm kind of thinking it doesn't mean that if your child says or articulates in some way that they feel like they don't want to be hit.

00:59:46.690 --> 00:59:50.010
It doesn't necessarily mean that they are going to commit suicide.

00:59:50.490 --> 00:59:50.521
Right.

00:59:51.246 --> 00:59:54.956
And if you are able to give them the space to say it, actually, you're one step closer to.

00:59:55.536 --> 00:59:55.775
Yeah.

00:59:56.445 --> 00:59:56.766
Yeah.

00:59:56.766 --> 01:00:00.505
And a big part of now is being able to talk.

01:00:00.516 --> 01:00:00.775
Yeah.

01:00:00.775 --> 01:00:07.166
And I feel like now to talk to people, if I want to be emotionally vulnerable, I know who I can talk to.

01:00:07.356 --> 01:00:10.396
And I know that I'll be, I'll get the, the respect, I guess.

01:00:10.396 --> 01:00:14.365
And the, and the interest, the reaction I'm hoping for,

01:00:15.056 --> 01:00:17.536
You also said you don't want to be a burden.

01:00:18.175 --> 01:00:22.405
Like I am, you know, it's been quite a significant period of time now in your grief.

01:00:22.976 --> 01:00:26.541
And I sometimes think, oh God, do people really want to hear me talking about this?

01:00:26.541 --> 01:00:33.416
And then, as we talked about right at the beginning, I realised that once again, I'm censoring myself for what other people might think.

01:00:33.715 --> 01:00:34.085
Exactly.

01:00:34.385 --> 01:00:38.976
And even if they are momentarily discomforted by hearing that I'm really sad, I'm not.

01:00:39.226 --> 01:00:42.925
it's still a lot lighter of a load to carry than what we have to carry.

01:00:43.585 --> 01:00:43.726
I don't know.

01:00:43.786 --> 01:00:45.755
Again, I'm, I'm less likely to care.

01:00:46.231 --> 01:00:52.001
about what other people are thinking about it, you know, because at the end of the day, I can't be responsible for your thoughts and feelings.

01:00:52.001 --> 01:00:54.291
I'm only responsible for mine and the way I react to you.

01:00:55.081 --> 01:00:56.771
And that gives me compassion as well.

01:00:57.280 --> 01:01:03.150
That allows me to be more forgiving, not forgiving, more receptive to what other people are going

01:01:03.425 --> 01:01:05.485
Maybe, and more understanding as well, I think.

01:01:05.856 --> 01:01:15.735
I, I remember dealing with a guy, like I said, I deal with people, I remember playing golf with a guy and he, he saw my baseball cap or my hat, which had only foundation on it because I'm only foundation.

01:01:16.115 --> 01:01:17.326
There was a charity event recently.

01:01:17.456 --> 01:01:18.195
Well, what's that about?

01:01:18.565 --> 01:01:19.985
Well, yeah, my son took his own life.

01:01:19.985 --> 01:01:21.556
I said, he goes, stop right there.

01:01:22.326 --> 01:01:23.576
Literally stop right there.

01:01:24.016 --> 01:01:24.876
I don't want to talk about it.

01:01:26.916 --> 01:01:27.675
That's what he said.

01:01:27.880 --> 01:01:29.286
So he literally shut you down.

01:01:29.585 --> 01:01:30.346
I'll be down immediately.

01:01:30.346 --> 01:01:30.635
Yeah.

01:01:30.905 --> 01:01:33.096
And at that time I was.

01:01:34.266 --> 01:01:35.996
I was affected by it.

01:01:36.126 --> 01:01:36.536
Yeah.

01:01:36.755 --> 01:01:38.936
Now, as he explained, he says, I've got two daughters.

01:01:38.936 --> 01:01:39.235
Yeah.

01:01:39.275 --> 01:01:40.465
I don't want to go there.

01:01:40.985 --> 01:01:41.876
I can't imagine it.

01:01:41.936 --> 01:01:43.695
I'm not prepared to have that conversation with you.

01:01:44.525 --> 01:01:45.596
I had to respect that.

01:01:46.811 --> 01:01:49.581
But you must also have felt a bit like you were being silenced.

01:01:49.581 --> 01:01:54.001
And like your story was too awful for other people to even hear.

01:01:54.311 --> 01:01:54.971
It did.

01:01:55.081 --> 01:01:55.610
It did.

01:01:55.670 --> 01:01:59.771
That's how, but remember I'm responsible for the way I react to other people.

01:02:00.061 --> 01:02:01.570
Then I reacted to it.

01:02:02.331 --> 01:02:04.521
I ended up losing the golf, but that's, that's a side issue.

01:02:04.521 --> 01:02:04.771
Yeah.

01:02:05.170 --> 01:02:07.760
But I guess the point being is that it did affect me.

01:02:07.811 --> 01:02:09.431
I felt, well, why wouldn't you want to know?

01:02:09.440 --> 01:02:11.990
Why am I not allowed to share with you something that's happened?

01:02:11.990 --> 01:02:15.110
That's why I tick, uh, why are you not supportive of me?

01:02:15.110 --> 01:02:17.510
I didn't know him very well, but that's neither here nor there.

01:02:18.501 --> 01:02:20.451
Whereas now I'm more and more inclined to go.

01:02:20.451 --> 01:02:20.851
Okay.

01:02:21.076 --> 01:02:26.025
That's okay, if you're not prepared to talk about it, then I can, that's okay, you know, because I'm okay.

01:02:26.436 --> 01:02:28.206
I don't have to talk about it anymore.

01:02:28.786 --> 01:02:30.365
I can choose to say or don't say.

01:02:30.396 --> 01:02:34.425
So anybody can ask me, and on one day I might say, yeah, I'll tell you all about it.

01:02:34.715 --> 01:02:39.976
On another day, I might think, you know, I don't, I don't really want to talk about it today, because I'm going to go and do something else.

01:02:39.976 --> 01:02:41.596
I don't want to have that conversation.

01:02:42.025 --> 01:02:44.335
And now I understand, now I recognize that.

01:02:44.771 --> 01:02:48.501
The conversation I struggle with often is, um, I have four children.

01:02:49.240 --> 01:02:50.561
People say, oh wow, you've got four children.

01:02:50.561 --> 01:02:51.121
How old are they?

01:02:51.121 --> 01:02:56.530
I then say their ages, and Hector and Holly are about six months apart, so for six months of the year, they're the same age.

01:02:56.751 --> 01:02:58.510
And then people will say, are they twins?

01:02:59.291 --> 01:03:26.268
And then of course, I feel kind of morally obligated to say that Ben is dead, that he didn't leave me, because I feel that I sort of have to want to protect that and then, you know, then the, then it'd be that John's also a widow and then suddenly I've just told, and most people are very, very polite, but on occasion, I'll just say, I'll just say I've got four kids and if they ask the ages, I'll, you know, either say the no, they're not twins and just leave it at that, but it depends very much on how you feel about it.

01:03:26.268 --> 01:03:27.240
And I got to be honest.

01:03:27.565 --> 01:03:33.916
In the early days, I got a kind of weird, perverse pleasure from shocking people, because I was like, fuck you, I'm going to ruin your day too.

01:03:34.686 --> 01:03:34.885
High five.

01:03:34.976 --> 01:03:35.186
Yep.

01:03:36.826 --> 01:03:37.365
It's same.

01:03:38.106 --> 01:03:39.596
I wanna, I wanna see you squirm.

01:03:39.715 --> 01:03:41.036
Yeah, I want to see your discomfort.

01:03:41.106 --> 01:03:42.485
I want you to know my pain.

01:03:42.786 --> 01:03:53.846
I wanted to know, and again, you may or may not have examples, and one of those was kind of one of them, but sort of some of the like, the worst things people said to you, like, did anybody do any real clangers?

01:03:55.655 --> 01:03:56.635
Sorry for your mishap.

01:03:56.936 --> 01:03:58.335
Sorry for your mishap.

01:03:58.726 --> 01:03:59.085
Yeah,

01:03:59.255 --> 01:04:00.436
Who was that?

01:04:00.735 --> 01:04:00.896
you.

01:04:01.559 --> 01:04:03.561
fucking hell.

01:04:04.726 --> 01:04:06.596
No, that was that.

01:04:06.666 --> 01:04:11.335
I mean, I've, I've had, I've had, I've been disappointed by people's reactions.

01:04:11.385 --> 01:04:32.550
Um, you know, I don't need to tell you, you know, names of people, but, you know, there have been people that, that were key people in my life at various times who I think it, you know, I think their discomfort was more important than mine, so therefore the conversations were always dominated by, by their needs as opposed to mine.

01:04:32.581 --> 01:04:35.251
So they're no longer in my life.

01:04:35.550 --> 01:04:41.400
But don't you think that that is, is so kind of, it's like symbolic of the change that we go through?

01:04:42.081 --> 01:04:45.900
Because I'm assuming that you, much like me, are no longer the same person that you were.

01:04:46.771 --> 01:04:49.271
I'm, in some ways, better, actually.

01:04:49.320 --> 01:05:02.690
I mean, I'm not saying I would have liked this to happen to me, but the outcome has been that instead of it making me give up, roll over, and, you know, drown in my own vodka vomit, it's made me who I am now.

01:05:03.025 --> 01:05:03.485
You sure?

01:05:03.786 --> 01:05:06.896
Um, And I guess that is difficult with friendships.

01:05:07.045 --> 01:05:11.985
And I found we, we had a couple of friendships and trying to figure out where I fitted in that dynamic.

01:05:12.005 --> 01:05:21.016
And the friends I, I, some, I mean, some have been brilliant, don't get me wrong, but a lot of my closest friends now, people that never even knew me before, didn't know me when I drank, didn't know me when I was married to Ben.

01:05:21.726 --> 01:05:23.925
And it is sad.

01:05:24.096 --> 01:05:24.715
It is sad.

01:05:24.755 --> 01:05:31.465
But I also believe that sometimes people are, your friendships are kind of there for, A period of time because people change so much,

01:05:31.766 --> 01:05:32.306
For a reason?

01:05:32.306 --> 01:05:32.585
Well.

01:05:32.596 --> 01:05:41.606
but it, but it is, it must be, um, and I'm sure it was absolutely devastating to not necessarily receive the support that you needed in that

01:05:41.945 --> 01:05:50.885
I was too busy with my own stuff to worry excessively about other people and, you know, I didn't lose sleep over losing friends because I've lost my son.

01:05:51.016 --> 01:05:51.405
Yeah.

01:05:51.755 --> 01:05:51.945
Yeah.

01:05:51.945 --> 01:05:54.045
And the great, I would say snippity snip motherfucker.

01:05:54.076 --> 01:05:55.545
Like you suddenly become like, fuck you.

01:05:55.615 --> 01:05:56.056
I don't care.

01:05:56.056 --> 01:05:58.351
Mm hmm.

01:05:58.585 --> 01:06:05.326
I realize that I've also got, you know, I don't really want to talk about Morgan with people that didn't know him that well, don't see the value of that.

01:06:05.416 --> 01:06:06.675
It's not for my benefit.

01:06:06.835 --> 01:06:12.295
And so, but, but occasionally I do, but the people that care are the people that I will talk to.

01:06:12.786 --> 01:06:17.686
But most, a lot of my friends will never mention Morgan's name again, and that's not a criticism.

01:06:17.686 --> 01:06:25.025
It's an observation, uh, because I'm not sure I really would want to have those conversations with them now, because if I want to have a conversation with Morgan, I'm going to go and speak to Stella

01:06:25.360 --> 01:06:25.860
Yeah,

01:06:26.161 --> 01:06:26.815
and speak to Jake.

01:06:26.826 --> 01:06:28.306
I'm going to speak to the people that remember him.

01:06:28.985 --> 01:06:29.815
And I've had those

01:06:29.891 --> 01:06:40.641
three of you still have, um, you know, the kind of conversation, I don't mean the deep and meaningfuls because those are the heavy conversations, but do you chat about Morgan and how he was as a kid and things like that?

01:06:40.661 --> 01:06:45.931
Yeah, I think that's really, really important because you are the custodians of his memory now, aren't you?

01:06:46.621 --> 01:06:47.130
Exactly.

01:06:47.130 --> 01:06:48.860
And that's why it's, that's important for us.

01:06:49.141 --> 01:06:55.451
And we started, uh, Jake very kindly transferred all the videos from VHS onto digital.

01:06:55.900 --> 01:07:06.331
Uh, so we, we slowly watching a few of the old videos when the boys were younger, it is tough, but we're more likely to look at it through a better lens.

01:07:06.331 --> 01:07:12.971
Now, whereas I think, I think rubber, one of the first things that happened when, when Morgan died was Stella wants to show me a video of the boys when they were

01:07:13.326 --> 01:07:13.786
Anything?

01:07:14.085 --> 01:07:15.280
I, I couldn't bear to see it.

01:07:15.311 --> 01:07:21.860
I really, but Stella did, which is another example of how we all react differently to different, to the same situation.

01:07:22.280 --> 01:07:23.510
That's what she needed to do.

01:07:23.871 --> 01:07:27.170
But we've, me instead have dealt very differently to, to Morgan's death.

01:07:28.010 --> 01:07:30.981
We've been able to talk it through, 'cause we have got those different experiences.

01:07:30.981 --> 01:07:32.570
She, she want nothing to do with the charity.

01:07:33.231 --> 01:07:34.820
She's never had anything to do with the charity.

01:07:34.820 --> 01:07:38.780
She might have attended one or two events over the, the proceeding nine years.

01:07:40.150 --> 01:07:40.690
That's fine.

01:07:40.780 --> 01:07:41.650
That's absolutely fine.

01:07:42.255 --> 01:07:53.706
So Stuart, I do want to ask you a little bit more about the charity, but before we do so, I really, neither of us have remembered to finish off the dbt, so let's just swing back to that subject and just finish that loop.

01:07:54.056 --> 01:07:57.876
So, distress tolerance is dealing with suicidal ideation.

01:07:58.585 --> 01:08:02.826
Mindfulness, which is dealing with the here and now, learning to live in the moment.

01:08:03.905 --> 01:08:16.496
The third and fourth modules, which I found most beneficial to me, one was called, uh, emotional regulation, which is about being able to regulate your own emotions, which is where I've struggled my entire life.

01:08:17.055 --> 01:08:17.546
Me too.

01:08:17.845 --> 01:08:22.140
And here's the example that I can give to people without going into detail.

01:08:22.140 --> 01:08:26.310
But being a people pleaser, I had this tendency to say yes to doing lots of things.

01:08:26.310 --> 01:08:32.041
Yeah, and the long and the short of it is, I don't know why I was going to detail.

01:08:32.145 --> 01:08:32.466
Yeah.

01:08:33.280 --> 01:08:40.940
went out on a date, all right, and had a lovely time and we went to the pub and then she said, let's go to her local pub.

01:08:42.060 --> 01:08:43.171
Uh, I didn't want to go.

01:08:43.890 --> 01:08:44.600
I didn't want to go.

01:08:44.831 --> 01:08:46.070
I was ready to go home to bed.

01:08:46.506 --> 01:08:47.246
What did I do?

01:08:47.435 --> 01:08:48.315
I'm a people pleaser.

01:08:48.565 --> 01:08:49.195
I said, yes.

01:08:49.636 --> 01:08:50.456
Didn't want to let her down.

01:08:50.676 --> 01:08:51.595
So I go to the pub.

01:08:52.176 --> 01:08:57.845
I'm now in her world with some of her friends and I can, I can do it.

01:08:57.845 --> 01:09:01.275
Remember we said, best version of ourselves in that environment.

01:09:01.916 --> 01:09:04.935
And even though I don't want to be there, I'm having a okay time.

01:09:05.506 --> 01:09:07.216
Well, let's go back to his house afterwards.

01:09:07.355 --> 01:09:08.405
Let's carry on the party there.

01:09:09.786 --> 01:09:10.615
I didn't want to go.

01:09:11.055 --> 01:09:12.546
A little old for that shit, Stuart.

01:09:12.845 --> 01:09:13.256
did.

01:09:13.765 --> 01:09:14.405
You went,

01:09:16.095 --> 01:09:18.555
Then afterwards I was ready to go home.

01:09:18.706 --> 01:09:19.626
She goes I can't go home.

01:09:19.926 --> 01:09:28.206
My daughter's at home with her, baby I want to come to your house Didn't want to to you know

01:09:28.331 --> 01:09:29.261
Does she live with you now?

01:09:31.706 --> 01:09:32.345
Kids in there.

01:09:32.845 --> 01:09:37.645
Yes, but the thing is though is that I ended up doing five six things that

01:09:37.746 --> 01:09:38.555
you didn't want to do.

01:09:38.916 --> 01:09:41.695
Didn't want to do And I spoke to my therapist about it.

01:09:42.315 --> 01:09:45.605
And I was sorry, the next day I was really emotional.

01:09:45.796 --> 01:09:47.735
I felt like I really let myself down.

01:09:48.376 --> 01:10:00.935
I like for all my progress that I'd made, you know, all the great work I'd done that one moment, I literally let myself down and I was an emotional wreck, uh, tearful, you know, really felt low.

01:10:01.166 --> 01:10:02.926
And I was playing golf with a friend actually.

01:10:02.966 --> 01:10:08.126
And I told him, you guys don't know what you're worrying about, but in my world, it was a big deal.

01:10:08.595 --> 01:10:09.775
And I spoke to my therapist.

01:10:10.286 --> 01:10:14.966
Uh, and he said, okay, on a scale of 1 to 10, where would you rate that emotional feeling?

01:10:14.966 --> 01:10:16.615
I said, 8, 8 or 9.

01:10:17.456 --> 01:10:21.666
I've literally felt worse than I had done for a long time because of that day.

01:10:22.216 --> 01:10:26.046
Okay, Stu, so how would you feel if you'd killed someone during driving?

01:10:27.225 --> 01:10:28.405
Well, shit, that's a 10.

01:10:29.166 --> 01:10:32.246
Now you've got to live with that guilt every day for the rest of your life.

01:10:32.655 --> 01:10:35.216
Okay, so you now view that as a 10.

01:10:36.095 --> 01:10:40.115
Look at your Misdemeanor through a different filter.

01:10:40.305 --> 01:10:41.525
Where would you rate that now?

01:10:42.645 --> 01:10:42.895
Oh,

01:10:43.235 --> 01:10:43.836
Mm hmm.

01:10:44.065 --> 01:10:45.716
a one out of 10 or two out of 10.

01:10:46.235 --> 01:10:47.055
No one died.

01:10:47.895 --> 01:10:48.485
No one got hurt.

01:10:49.235 --> 01:10:52.155
The only person that suffered as a result of that was me.

01:10:52.645 --> 01:11:07.860
So now the emotional regulation has taught me that when I do have an emotional reaction to something that happens around me, I'm able to, I've taught myself on a sec. Let's just revisit that.

01:11:08.371 --> 01:11:09.621
What is the emotion?

01:11:09.761 --> 01:11:11.520
Let's understand what that emotion is to start with.

01:11:11.520 --> 01:11:14.411
Yeah, let's revisit it and look at it again.

01:11:14.980 --> 01:11:22.560
And therefore, I think that's part of the reason why I'm able to then like deal with stuff because I don't overreact in the same way that I did before.

01:11:22.570 --> 01:11:25.145
So that's the third module, emotional regulation.

01:11:25.445 --> 01:11:25.895
Mm hmm.

01:11:26.195 --> 01:11:29.011
Fourth one is interpersonal effectiveness.

01:11:30.240 --> 01:11:43.091
So the thing with The partners I've had, the girlfriends I've had, the relationships, has been my inability, my inability to actually deal with stuff, like problems that exist in all relationships, yeah?

01:11:43.100 --> 01:11:52.395
Whether it's, I don't want to talk about sex, it could be sex, it could be money, it could be You name it, it could be any number of reasons why you might have an argument with your partner.

01:11:52.876 --> 01:11:55.855
I did not know how to have those conversations.

01:11:55.905 --> 01:11:56.275
Yeah.

01:11:56.275 --> 01:11:56.615
Mm

01:11:56.770 --> 01:11:57.461
it was that.

01:11:58.030 --> 01:12:09.121
That was the, the, the level of my inability to deal with normal day conflict, not to not understanding how to conduct myself.

01:12:09.501 --> 01:12:15.801
So interpersonal effectiveness was about learning the skills of how to have those conversations.

01:12:15.841 --> 01:12:24.461
Because we all know, if you don't know, we're idiots, if you have a discussion with someone and it ends up with elevated voices, it's already over.

01:12:24.560 --> 01:12:24.581
You

01:12:24.796 --> 01:12:25.136
hmm.

01:12:25.650 --> 01:12:30.966
may as well stop right there, because now shouting is all about making yourself heard.

01:12:31.265 --> 01:12:32.136
So volume goes

01:12:32.280 --> 01:12:39.180
allows you and the other person to make them hear your point of view, because their point of view doesn't matter anymore.

01:12:40.451 --> 01:12:44.161
And I, I was guilty of that as far as the next person.

01:12:44.411 --> 01:12:52.706
So the fourth module, interpersonal effectiveness, was about learning how To have those conversations in a calm manner, so it's a proper conversation.

01:12:53.126 --> 01:12:55.150
And I'll tell you this about Stella as well.

01:12:55.150 --> 01:13:01.376
We had a flashpoint moment, maybe like three, four months ago, where we had a conversation.

01:13:01.845 --> 01:13:06.086
What happened was, is that I was on my phone and she snapped at me and said, you're always on your phone.

01:13:06.086 --> 01:13:07.025
All right.

01:13:07.105 --> 01:13:09.895
I then snapped back and said, no, I'm not, I'm not always on my phone.

01:13:10.265 --> 01:13:12.845
And it went very quickly from nought to a hundred and literally.

01:13:14.326 --> 01:13:20.336
10 seconds, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, we'd still be arguing about it now.

01:13:20.345 --> 01:13:20.815
All right.

01:13:21.216 --> 01:13:26.595
I'd still be apologizing and she'd be doing this and we wouldn't have been able to get past it.

01:13:27.145 --> 01:13:34.265
I am so, so proud of us because literally within 30 more seconds, we were back to where we were before.

01:13:34.626 --> 01:13:36.855
And we were able to go, look, I'm so sorry that happened.

01:13:36.855 --> 01:13:39.546
And she said, yeah, look, you know, but we were able to recover from it.

01:13:39.645 --> 01:13:40.006
Like

01:13:41.711 --> 01:13:52.301
And it's also, um, the empathy and the kind of, what you learn yourself by the training you've done and also the counseling is that if somebody snaps at you because you're on your phone, it's probably not because you're on your phone.

01:13:52.371 --> 01:14:01.301
It's because they feel like they're not being valued at that moment, but it can come across as a, oh, you're always on your phone, which then turns into, you know, back and forth argument.

01:14:01.600 --> 01:14:05.081
Last time I'd been in her house, she was talking to me.

01:14:05.081 --> 01:14:07.841
I had my phone like this because I was watching the football.

01:14:08.961 --> 01:14:10.610
Oh well, she had a valid point then, yeah?

01:14:10.911 --> 01:14:11.761
She had a valid point.

01:14:11.850 --> 01:14:12.140
Yeah.

01:14:12.261 --> 01:14:14.161
I'm not denying my culpability.

01:14:14.161 --> 01:14:14.730
That's the point.

01:14:14.761 --> 01:14:20.440
I'm not saying I'm not trying to defend myself, but what I said on the back of it was, I'll never do that again.

01:14:21.331 --> 01:14:23.560
When we had that flashpoint, I said, look, you're right.

01:14:23.740 --> 01:14:28.511
Um, you know, but when she said you're always on your phone, that's what I took.

01:14:28.560 --> 01:14:35.100
That's when I'd get my phone out and start showing how much screen time I'd spent and, you know, say, look, I've been on it for two hours today, that's not always.

01:14:35.525 --> 01:14:36.126
Exactly.

01:14:36.155 --> 01:14:45.136
And that's where the interpersonal effective comes is being able to have a conversation and have a meaningful conversation that has an output, an outcome that's just that's pleasing for both of you.

01:14:45.506 --> 01:14:48.426
And I said, look, I understand why you think that I won't do that again.

01:14:49.115 --> 01:14:51.126
Next time I come here, it'll be on silent.

01:14:51.935 --> 01:15:00.926
I think learning is what you've described there as well is that is we refer to this quite a lot in the conversation It's just that somebody can be annoyed with something you're doing.

01:15:00.945 --> 01:15:02.345
It doesn't mean they're annoyed with you.

01:15:02.355 --> 01:15:19.301
It doesn't mean they hate you It's accepting a culpability for a small action rather than it then ruminating and I'm a terrible person They must really hate me I've ruined the whole time and suddenly you're in you can see how the depths of despair arrive because You Your own mind is off.

01:15:19.650 --> 01:15:22.371
that takes us back to the insecurities that we had when we were kids.

01:15:22.881 --> 01:15:28.841
You know, I'd start to realize now, I don't know if you're, if you feel the same, but I sort of feel now, I don't know how I can explain it.

01:15:29.520 --> 01:15:31.650
I think I lived my life a bit as a victim.

01:15:32.331 --> 01:15:43.001
I think I viewed myself because of these things we just talked about, not just Morgan's death, but prior to that, the relationships that weren't going well, you know, work where I never quite reached the heights I should have done, you know, all those little

01:15:43.171 --> 01:15:43.600
Mm hmm.

01:15:43.720 --> 01:15:54.671
I think I subconsciously felt that it wasn't my fault, that that happened to me, that I wasn't responsible, which sort of makes you a bit of a victim.

01:15:55.070 --> 01:16:00.390
I think I had that victim mentality about, you know, Oh, I'm so hard done by type of thing.

01:16:00.860 --> 01:16:03.810
But now I've realized that that doesn't help.

01:16:04.041 --> 01:16:09.680
I've got to take responsibility for the choices I make, the decisions I make, the emotions I have.

01:16:10.360 --> 01:16:13.780
The relationships I have, I'm responsible for all of those things.

01:16:13.810 --> 01:16:21.841
I can't point the finger at anyone else, because I think, when it came to my parents, I think I might have intellectually blamed them, if that makes sense.

01:16:22.570 --> 01:16:28.291
Because of what they'd been through, I think I intellectually blamed them for that, which makes me, therefore, a victim, yeah?

01:16:28.940 --> 01:16:29.701
yeah, I do.

01:16:29.701 --> 01:16:30.121
I do.

01:16:30.150 --> 01:16:31.390
I understand that as well.

01:16:31.430 --> 01:16:56.336
And I'm like kind of ties into the ADHD diagnosis because when I received mine I then went back and I went and I kind of forgave myself for a lot of it but in the process I then convinced myself that I'd faked an ADHD assessment and that I didn't really have it and that I was Trying to make excuses to my bad behavior and I just use that as an example for how the mind will play tricks on you You know, and as it happens, I switched doctors, so I've been diagnosed twice.

01:16:56.676 --> 01:17:08.586
So, you know, there really is no, um, kind of ambiguity about it, but it's giving yourself, the whole living in the past, it's giving yourself forgiveness for the shit you've done, trying to do, learn from it and do better.

01:17:09.166 --> 01:17:17.296
And, and actually, in fact, now is a good opportunity to talk about the charity because you have created a charity and it's the Ollie Foundation.

01:17:17.666 --> 01:17:18.076
Is that right?

01:17:18.095 --> 01:17:18.536
Foundation.

01:17:18.565 --> 01:17:22.496
And, um, I mean, I'll let you talk about it because I think it's absolutely brilliant.

01:17:23.076 --> 01:17:25.845
Well, OLLIE stands for One Life Lost is Enough.

01:17:26.345 --> 01:17:27.565
There's three of us that set it up.

01:17:27.576 --> 01:17:30.595
We were parents that all lost a child to suicide.

01:17:30.676 --> 01:17:31.895
We met at a SOBS group.

01:17:32.676 --> 01:17:36.916
And I think, again, going back to Me needing to distract myself from my emotion.

01:17:37.336 --> 01:17:47.836
I felt this absolute desire to do something So I didn't see how my life could carry on and not do something How could I just carry on going to the pub on a Friday night and playing tennis on a Wednesday?

01:17:47.836 --> 01:17:50.145
How could I carry on and not do something?

01:17:50.145 --> 01:17:56.341
So we started the charity and our Our original sole aim was just to provide training.

01:17:56.841 --> 01:18:01.041
And the idea was to provide training to any professionals that work with young people.

01:18:01.470 --> 01:18:13.689
Um, you know, Morgan was, went to, you know, his secondary school where there had been two suicides, like six years prior to his, you know, and then so, and, and the, you know, but that was my, that was Morgan's story.

01:18:13.921 --> 01:18:23.970
You know, Chris, the other founder and Jane, the other founder as well, they're, Children, you know, they lost them in different circumstances, but we all felt this need to try and raise awareness and do something about it.

01:18:23.980 --> 01:19:01.746
So we, our sole aim was to provide training, but since then, as you can imagine, as it's sort of grown legs and evolved, like that whole piece of work that was around adoption, you know, we now get more involved in, I'm going to say, not special interest or maybe minority groups, whatever you want to call it, there are derivatives or it goes in different directions because Again, I think most people would have a very narrow view of suicide by choice maybe or otherwise if I don't want to go there So it's just other people that lose people like this But actually LGBT community are more at risk of suicide than non adopted people are more at risk

01:19:01.881 --> 01:19:03.171
Neurodivergent people.

01:19:03.341 --> 01:19:04.360
One of the highest, yeah.

01:19:04.395 --> 01:19:16.030
could probably imagine there are lots of minority groups that are more at risk And so the chance is subsequently evolved to try and reach these different Target audiences who are all affected.

01:19:16.261 --> 01:19:21.671
So even though it was initially a charity for young people, you can't turn anybody away.

01:19:21.711 --> 01:19:26.411
We're not like, you know, anybody who approaches and has difficulties, we will try and find a solution for them.

01:19:26.421 --> 01:19:30.530
Whether it's to refer them a signpost to people that can help because we're not counselors.

01:19:31.051 --> 01:19:31.451
Mm hmm.

01:19:31.871 --> 01:19:33.001
We're not therapists.

01:19:33.461 --> 01:19:36.671
Uh, we can refer to people that are counselors and we are therapists.

01:19:36.740 --> 01:19:42.900
Our job is to just raise awareness, conversations like this, talking about the wider issues, the wider picture.

01:19:43.220 --> 01:19:50.661
You know, even like in my SOBS group, when Liam Payne died, you know, that created, uh, you know, a significant topic in the room.

01:19:51.791 --> 01:19:53.871
It was the same with me with Caroline Flack.

01:19:53.890 --> 01:19:55.621
What, five years ago when she died?

01:19:55.990 --> 01:20:01.220
I remember going to my SOBS group five years ago after she died, and it was the number one topic in the room.

01:20:01.220 --> 01:20:05.171
Because her death had created this, resulted in a reaction that we all had.

01:20:05.740 --> 01:20:08.381
Almost as if to say, Look, you see, it can happen to

01:20:08.511 --> 01:20:09.490
happen to anyone.

01:20:09.671 --> 01:20:11.400
It happens to famous people as well.

01:20:11.970 --> 01:20:19.801
I think we kept thinking that other people viewed it happening to other people that had mental health issues, or it was always going to happen, or look at the parents, you

01:20:20.030 --> 01:20:23.430
I was gonna ask you, did you feel judged as a parent?

01:20:24.261 --> 01:20:24.730
Mm.

01:20:24.970 --> 01:20:26.430
it was probably myself, but I did feel it.

01:20:26.671 --> 01:20:30.070
I did a quiz once, uh, where it's like 250 people.

01:20:30.070 --> 01:20:33.360
I did a speech to everyone and offered free training.

01:20:33.610 --> 01:20:43.211
To everybody in the room to anybody wants to come on a suicide awareness course to understand how to have a conversation, what to do, uh, how to handle it.

01:20:43.610 --> 01:20:45.140
I offered that 250 people.

01:20:45.150 --> 01:20:46.105
How many took it up?

01:20:47.541 --> 01:20:48.070
One hand?

01:20:48.131 --> 01:20:48.501
Yeah.

01:20:48.591 --> 01:20:48.970
Three.

01:20:49.336 --> 01:20:49.716
three.

01:20:50.086 --> 01:20:54.805
So that's 247 people that believed that they didn't need to go on that course.

01:20:55.076 --> 01:20:58.536
Now, okay, look, there may have been people had already done the course to be fair.

01:20:59.015 --> 01:21:05.695
But I think I still are on the side of 247 people think it's never going to happen to them.

01:21:06.025 --> 01:21:07.336
It happens to people like me,

01:21:07.940 --> 01:21:08.320
Mm.

01:21:08.970 --> 01:21:13.400
We don't want to have to think about that possibility because of their own insecurities.

01:21:13.820 --> 01:21:21.480
You know, when, before Morgan died, uh, my partner at the time was watching a Panorama documentary on suicide in young men.

01:21:22.001 --> 01:21:23.301
He said, maybe you should watch this.

01:21:23.751 --> 01:21:24.581
What do you think I said?

01:21:24.900 --> 01:21:25.451
Don't need to.

01:21:25.860 --> 01:21:26.341
I need to.

01:21:26.341 --> 01:21:27.421
Foot was on in 10 minutes.

01:21:28.796 --> 01:21:29.065
Yeah.

01:21:29.105 --> 01:21:31.235
It's again, like widowhood.

01:21:31.235 --> 01:21:33.365
It's something that only affects you when it affects you.

01:21:34.265 --> 01:21:47.855
But actually, we do need to be talking about it, and we do need to be identifying the early signs, and we do need to create an environment where men, young men, do feel that they can say, I'm feeling really sad, and not risk being ridiculed, and mocked, and told to, you know, man up.

01:21:47.961 --> 01:21:55.711
Initially, it was a mission of mine to get people to talk about it, to get this reaction, to have people come on the course.

01:21:56.411 --> 01:21:57.850
It was literally my M. O., right?

01:21:58.180 --> 01:22:02.581
Literally a driving force behind my existence, to get everybody involved.

01:22:03.081 --> 01:22:08.970
But at some point I sort of realized that not everybody, not everybody is going to buy into it.

01:22:09.461 --> 01:22:12.251
And there's always likely to be people that are bereaved by suicide.

01:22:13.121 --> 01:22:14.490
And it's not, and it's not uncommon.

01:22:14.501 --> 01:22:16.121
Do you know, I think, I think I heard this correctly.

01:22:16.711 --> 01:22:21.820
There were 400 new suicide charities that started this year alone.

01:22:22.055 --> 01:22:22.706
Blimey.

01:22:23.621 --> 01:22:24.511
Why would that be?

01:22:26.201 --> 01:22:31.890
That's 400 people who have been bereaved by suicide who like me think I need to do something about it.

01:22:31.980 --> 01:22:32.951
I've got to do something about it.

01:22:32.951 --> 01:22:34.280
I've got to throw my energies into it.

01:22:34.280 --> 01:22:35.810
Whether it's a guilt reaction.

01:22:36.190 --> 01:22:38.704
or whatever reaction it is, it's that distraction.

01:22:38.990 --> 01:22:40.081
I've got to do something.

01:22:40.690 --> 01:22:43.860
But how many of those 400 people will still be doing it in 10 years time?

01:22:45.310 --> 01:22:47.030
I don't, I don't know how they, how they are.

01:22:47.041 --> 01:22:52.701
So I sort of realized in a way that I can't save everybody and I'm not going to lose sleep.

01:22:52.780 --> 01:22:57.581
I'm not going to damage my own mental health by worrying about.

01:22:57.730 --> 01:22:58.820
what other people do.

01:22:59.060 --> 01:23:00.421
I will do what I can to help.

01:23:00.520 --> 01:23:01.801
And if I'm needed, I'll help.

01:23:02.171 --> 01:23:05.730
But I realized I have to look after my own well being.

01:23:06.171 --> 01:23:08.341
People want to come to me, talk to me, I'll talk to them.

01:23:09.070 --> 01:23:10.270
But I'm not going to go chasing.

01:23:10.820 --> 01:23:13.121
And I'm not being critical of other people.

01:23:13.430 --> 01:23:22.360
But I know lots of people that have been bereaved by suicide, and it's become their number one objective is to change the law and get funding into schools and raise awareness and things like that.

01:23:22.360 --> 01:23:23.740
How long can you continue doing that?

01:23:24.185 --> 01:23:25.296
Still got a life to lead.

01:23:25.735 --> 01:23:33.796
You still probably got other family members that need you as a Significant person in their life and yet you're driven by this desire and need to change things

01:23:34.155 --> 01:23:35.706
And it can become all consuming.

01:23:35.796 --> 01:23:36.006
Mm hmm.

01:23:36.006 --> 01:23:48.001
journey, you know, it can't be your be all and end it some people it does dribble Stephen Lawrence and his parents think I think, and I don't want to quote them because that would be unfair.

01:23:48.011 --> 01:23:51.650
So, but I think the dad ended up going to move to the West Indies.

01:23:52.220 --> 01:23:57.621
He didn't want to be part of that anymore, but I think the mother became a Baroness, right.

01:23:58.291 --> 01:24:03.390
It came with like in the house of Lords or, you know, it was then I almost like identified by it in a way.

01:24:04.211 --> 01:24:06.100
I'm not criticizing either.

01:24:06.190 --> 01:24:11.511
I'm not passing comment, but you've got two extreme reactions to, to, to a loss.

01:24:11.511 --> 01:24:13.100
And I don't want either of those in a

01:24:13.195 --> 01:24:23.595
you want to sort of sit in the middle and I found the same thing with podcast to a certain extent is I form very intense Relationships with the people I talk to but I've spoken to about 120.

01:24:24.086 --> 01:24:33.435
So if you then If I'm then communicating individually with all those people, which I did try and do initially, and of course you can't, then you feel like you're letting them down.

01:24:33.886 --> 01:24:43.235
And I don't know if you've experienced this as well, and um, it's when a sort of an acquaintance, a loose acquaintance, will message you completely out of the blue to tell you that somebody's died and would you mind talking to their family.

01:24:43.426 --> 01:24:47.086
And you think, um, no, I don't want to do that, I don't know them.

01:24:47.105 --> 01:24:48.240
And I think you do.

01:24:48.720 --> 01:24:55.390
Especially when your grief tips into your professional life, like ours has, then you, you have to put quite firm boundaries in, don't you?

01:24:55.390 --> 01:25:00.081
You know, I'm, I care, of course I care, but I almost care too much, and it will destroy me.

01:25:00.240 --> 01:25:00.680
It helps

01:25:00.980 --> 01:25:01.680
exactly.

01:25:01.720 --> 01:25:07.110
The difference for me is that I now know that I can't tell people I can share my story.

01:25:08.001 --> 01:25:10.180
I can elicit what's happened to me.

01:25:10.600 --> 01:25:12.051
I can talk through my journey.

01:25:12.291 --> 01:25:16.961
And if that somehow I'm not gonna say inspires that makes me sound like an asshole.

01:25:16.961 --> 01:25:26.360
But If it somehow gives them a moment where they, I've had a couple of clients, you know, work as HR and a couple of clients said, we've got suicidal employees.

01:25:26.360 --> 01:25:29.091
When you talk to them, that's fine.

01:25:29.150 --> 01:25:31.820
Happy to talk to them, but I'm not a counselor.

01:25:31.871 --> 01:25:32.761
I'm not a therapist.

01:25:32.791 --> 01:25:34.011
I'm not going to tell them what to do.

01:25:34.020 --> 01:25:35.331
It's not going to become my problem.

01:25:35.371 --> 01:25:40.381
All I'm going to do is share my story and tell them how I've moved forward.

01:25:40.600 --> 01:25:41.680
That that's all I can do.

01:25:42.411 --> 01:25:43.051
And I think there's,

01:25:43.490 --> 01:25:43.551
right.

01:25:44.011 --> 01:25:48.461
somebody came on my podcast, and they used a term I really liked, um, and it was called Grief Sherpa.

01:25:48.980 --> 01:25:56.615
And whilst I've just said I don't like to be the sort of, you know, go to rental widow, there is a kind of role that you do take on, and, and that,

01:25:56.850 --> 01:25:57.791
I went to widow.

01:25:58.506 --> 01:25:59.320
Well, that

01:25:59.395 --> 01:25:59.735
Yeah, we're on Twitter.

01:26:00.136 --> 01:26:00.543
go.

01:26:00.543 --> 01:26:01.286
Print, print,

01:26:01.586 --> 01:26:01.826
high.

01:26:02.756 --> 01:26:03.246
We're on Twitter.

01:26:04.855 --> 01:26:14.416
And it is the idea or the concept of offering some hope, because when somebody you love dies, particularly in tragic circumstances, the first thing to be extinguished is hope.

01:26:14.525 --> 01:26:20.405
Once you've accepted they've gone, your hope is gone and all hope for your future, your, you think your life is ruined.

01:26:20.426 --> 01:26:26.336
And by inviting you to talk to me today, cause I knew that how much, and actually I didn't know how much work you've done on yourself.

01:26:26.376 --> 01:26:26.706
Actually.

01:26:26.706 --> 01:26:39.725
I assumed you'd done quite a bit to be able to do the charity, but I think, You are kind of saying to people that this awful thing, this really awful thing can happen and you still get the opportunity to make a choice.

01:26:40.155 --> 01:26:45.985
And all choice hasn't been taken from you because you can choose to let it consume you or you can choose to keep getting.

01:26:46.246 --> 01:26:53.166
I think in my, my, um, speech at Ben's funeral, I said, you know, I promise you that I'll get up every day, hold my head up and put my feet on the floor.

01:26:54.046 --> 01:26:59.496
Most days I've managed that most days, you know, there's been some days when I have not been able to get out of bed, but it is.

01:26:59.911 --> 01:27:06.470
If you just keep going, the momentum will push you forward, and you'll find a new rhythm, for want of a better word.

01:27:06.470 --> 01:27:15.011
And, you know, neither of us chose to be on this path and live the life that we've got, but you, you kind of make the best of it, because otherwise, what's the point?

01:27:15.011 --> 01:27:18.445
No,

01:27:18.746 --> 01:27:20.225
I guess, to become a better person.

01:27:20.345 --> 01:27:26.435
If I'm consumed by anxiety, which is what I was, what sort of life would I have now?

01:27:26.435 --> 01:27:36.126
I'd still be, I went on a cruise maybe three years ago, you know, but again, my, my insecurities meant that I was fearful of doing things, fearful of taking risks.

01:27:36.604 --> 01:27:44.916
And if you think about it, when it comes to depression, it's a simple analogy, actually, when people are depressed, there's a whole thought You have a duvet day, you stay in bed.

01:27:45.105 --> 01:27:47.256
You can't face the world around you, right?

01:27:47.775 --> 01:27:50.695
That makes perfect sense in the short term.

01:27:51.456 --> 01:27:54.176
One day, I can't face the world, absolutely fine.

01:27:55.265 --> 01:27:55.895
A week?

01:27:57.076 --> 01:27:57.836
A month?

01:27:58.105 --> 01:27:58.685
Three months?

01:27:58.695 --> 01:27:59.586
Six months?

01:28:00.065 --> 01:28:02.786
In bed, keep protecting yourself from the world.

01:28:03.315 --> 01:28:06.756
I'm not convinced that's particularly that's coping strategies, right?

01:28:06.945 --> 01:28:12.309
At some point, if you're in bed for six months, you've got to accept that you've got to take a risk.

01:28:12.805 --> 01:28:23.235
You have to take a risk by stepping outside and risking something happening because you can't continue to live your life within those, those, those boundaries of, uh, of coping strategies.

01:28:23.735 --> 01:28:26.216
If it's going to result when you staying in bed for six months.

01:28:26.275 --> 01:28:27.378
And not the

01:28:27.461 --> 01:28:28.201
as well, wouldn't you?

01:28:28.506 --> 01:28:29.865
And I went on a cruise.

01:28:30.386 --> 01:28:32.565
I never thought I would, but I went on a cruise around

01:28:32.690 --> 01:28:33.780
a surprise to me as well.

01:28:34.496 --> 01:28:41.836
So for 10 days, on a cruise, round Northern Europe, on my own, yeah, and it just showed me that I can do what I want.

01:28:42.405 --> 01:28:43.826
I can achieve the things I want.

01:28:43.945 --> 01:28:48.126
Okay, maybe I'll, you know, Yeah, look, none of us expected life to turn out the way it has.

01:28:48.586 --> 01:28:57.076
But if you think about it, we can't change anything that's happened in the past, and we can't really predict the future, because if we could predict the future, we wouldn't be here in the first place.

01:28:57.256 --> 01:28:58.336
We wouldn't be here in the first place.

01:28:58.336 --> 01:29:01.065
If we could predict the future, Morgan wouldn't be dead.

01:29:01.381 --> 01:29:01.801
Yeah.

01:29:02.131 --> 01:29:03.001
Yeah, you're right.

01:29:03.536 --> 01:29:05.466
So I can't predict what's going to happen in the future.

01:29:05.536 --> 01:29:20.640
All I can think about is Right here right now enjoying the time I've got still plan for the future and all my goals are designed towards me Achieving today what I need to do to get to where I need to get to which is about living in the moment I

01:29:20.940 --> 01:29:26.341
this is how I drive myself to the gym because I'm like, you're exercising for your 50, 60, 70 year old body.

01:29:26.381 --> 01:29:27.451
This is not for your body now.

01:29:27.470 --> 01:29:29.291
This is for the future and being able to move.

01:29:29.591 --> 01:29:32.860
was two, two stone heavier, maybe three or four years ago.

01:29:33.100 --> 01:29:37.501
And this time, this sort of like epiphany, I started walking.

01:29:38.190 --> 01:29:42.970
So near where I lived, there was a lovely walk through this countryside and it took two hours to do.

01:29:42.980 --> 01:29:44.020
I started doing it every day.

01:29:44.631 --> 01:29:47.470
And then one day I looked out the window, absolutely tipping it down.

01:29:48.110 --> 01:29:51.046
And my initial thought was, I don't want to walk in the rain.

01:29:51.876 --> 01:30:01.485
My second thought was if you don't walk in the rain There'll be another reason why you don't walk tomorrow and that reason tomorrow be our chip my nail or you know My shoelaces just snapped.

01:30:01.555 --> 01:30:06.695
There'll always be a reason why you don't do something that you don't want to do So I walked in the rain loved it.

01:30:06.860 --> 01:30:07.751
I love walking in the rain.

01:30:07.751 --> 01:30:07.985
Yeah.

01:30:08.286 --> 01:30:09.216
Yeah loved it.

01:30:09.515 --> 01:30:10.985
Have a shower get home and have a shower

01:30:11.690 --> 01:30:14.180
And it makes you walk faster as well to get warm again.

01:30:14.565 --> 01:30:17.126
Yeah, but you're right like anyway, there you

01:30:17.131 --> 01:30:19.430
is, but it's those little incremental decisions.

01:30:19.470 --> 01:30:22.610
Um, I had a rejection email from an agent yesterday.

01:30:22.610 --> 01:30:25.030
I've written a book and I fully expected to get it.

01:30:25.041 --> 01:30:26.051
She's a very big agent.

01:30:26.081 --> 01:30:31.536
I was, but anyway, we won't bore you the details, but my immediate thought was, you know, Oh, that's shit.

01:30:31.626 --> 01:30:32.975
I'm not going to do it.

01:30:32.975 --> 01:30:41.845
You know, I'm going to go home and cry and I actually I've joined gym that's on my school run so that I have to drive past the entrance and that's a very difficult thing to convince yourself that you don't have to go then.

01:30:42.326 --> 01:30:47.405
And I sat in the car park and I had a little cry and then I kind of thought to myself, what do you need to do?

01:30:47.605 --> 01:30:48.685
Do you need to go home and rest?

01:30:48.706 --> 01:30:49.786
Because if you do, you can.

01:30:50.435 --> 01:30:51.845
Or do you need to go in the gym and lift some weight?

01:30:51.895 --> 01:30:56.100
Because you can still go home and lie in bed after if you want to.

01:30:56.551 --> 01:31:01.801
But do that bit first, and you have to sort of, you have to treat yourself like a small child that you're trying to manipulate, don't you, a little bit.

01:31:02.435 --> 01:31:02.975
choices.

01:31:03.275 --> 01:31:04.930
Mm. It's all about the choices.

01:31:05.365 --> 01:31:05.886
choices.

01:31:06.166 --> 01:31:10.086
If you want to stay in bed, you can't complain that you don't get the rewards.

01:31:10.110 --> 01:31:10.386
Yeah.

01:31:11.320 --> 01:31:12.560
Yeah, you're absolutely right.

01:31:13.320 --> 01:31:18.421
Well, Stuart, it's been a real pleasure to catch up with you, and it's been really lovely.

01:31:18.451 --> 01:31:21.161
I'm just looking, we've done an hour and a half, and I probably could have kept going, to be fair.

01:31:21.680 --> 01:31:45.530
Um, thank you so much for talking about suicide and the suicide of a child That is, it is so shocking, and the way you've described the healing process that you've gone on, and the accountability that you've taken for your own well being, I think that is probably one of the kind of standout things I've noticed in this episode, and it is so easy to fall into that, woe is me.

01:31:45.751 --> 01:31:48.541
Um, and nobody would have blamed you, that's the other thing, isn't it?

01:31:48.961 --> 01:31:53.530
Nobody would have blamed us if we sank into self pity and despair, because we have an excuse to do it.

01:31:53.711 --> 01:31:54.970
We've got that get out of jail card.

01:31:55.530 --> 01:31:59.430
But actually, what kind of life would that be for me, for you, for our children?

01:31:59.511 --> 01:32:01.690
Because you've still got Jake, haven't you?

01:32:02.126 --> 01:32:02.355
yeah.

01:32:02.626 --> 01:32:02.716
I

01:32:02.716 --> 01:32:04.190
Yeah, everybody lives here.

01:32:04.940 --> 01:32:10.690
Well, for anybody that has been affected by the subject matter of today's episode, you can reach out to me.

01:32:10.720 --> 01:32:15.551
I'm at Rosie GIll-Moss on Instagram, or you can message me and I can pass anything on to Stuart.

01:32:15.631 --> 01:32:18.331
And his charity, just for anybody that missed it, is Ollie.

01:32:18.350 --> 01:32:20.131
It's One Life Lost Is Enough.

01:32:20.746 --> 01:32:21.706
the Ollie foundation.

01:32:21.751 --> 01:32:22.820
The Ollie Foundation.

01:32:23.251 --> 01:32:25.850
Thank you for listening today and thank you Stuart for joining me.

01:32:25.871 --> 01:32:28.220
I will be back with you all with a fresh new episode soon.

01:32:28.470 --> 01:32:29.310
Take care out there.